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  <id>tag:,2009:/1/tag:72.47.210.69,2004://1.4295-</id>
  <updated>2009-11-23T20:00:55Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Design for Data: Thoughts</title>
  
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    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2004://1.4295</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=4295" title="Design for Data: Thoughts" />
    <published>2004-11-05T06:05:29Z</published>
    <updated>2007-12-16T23:15:36Z</updated>
    <title>Design for Data: Thoughts</title>
    <summary>RSS and syndication technologies have completely changed the
rules about Information Architecture. It&apos;s now less about the website as a &quot;place&quot; to organize information - it&apos;s more
about how information flows, is aggregated and re-used...</summary>
    <author>
      <name>Richard MacManus</name>
      <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Web 2.0 Design" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p>Nearly a month ago I left a comment <a
href="http://www.kottke.org/04/10/design-for-web-20">on Jason Kottke's weblog</a>, in
response to a post about his upcoming Web 2.0 conference workshop called Design for Web
2.0. He had listed 15 questions that were to be discussed in that workshop and one in
particular caught my eye. It was:</p>

<p class="quote">"Right now, Web design feels like talking to the del.icio.us API and
blending Flickr RSS with Upcoming iCal subscriptions. What happens when design(ers) has
little to do with what's on the page?"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.kottke.org/04/10/design-for-web-20#15927">My comment on that
question was</a>:</p>

<p class="quote">"This is a fascinating question and it reminds me of a recent Tim
Berners-Lee interview, where he talked about how the Semantic Web is all about re-using
information. Yes I know TBL always talks about SemWeb, but there were some gem quotes in
this one. eg:</p>

<p class="quote">"The Semantic Web is just <b>the application of weblike design to
data</b>; it will be many more decades before we will be able to say we have really
implemented the Web idea in the full, if ever we can."<br />
(emphasis mine)</p>

<p class="quote"><a href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/002279.php">As I wrote a
week or so ago</a> about that: Nowadays it's not just about designing a beautiful
website, it's about designing for re-use of information. In a way, that's what people are
already doing with RSS - designing with data."</p>

<p>A few days after that, I submitted an article proposal to <a
href="http://www.digital-web.com/">Digital Web Magazine</a> on this topic of <b>Design
for Data</b>. The proposal ended up getting lost due to the email woes Digital Web were
having at the time, but I re-submitted it a couple of weeks later. In any case, I
<i>still</i> haven't quite put my finger on what my approach would be with the
article.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Then tonight I read a new Digital Web article by Joshua Porter called <a
href="http://www.digital-web.com/articles/home_alone_content_aggregators/">Home Alone?
How Content Aggregators Change Navigation and Control of Content</a>. This excellent
article got me thinking about Data Design again. So I thought I'd note down some
highlights from Joshua's article, then post some of my notes about Data Design - and
maybe people can give me some feedback or pitch in with ideas for us all to
explore.&nbsp;</p>

<h2>Distributed Navigation and Death of the Homepage</h2>

<p>Firstly,&nbsp;Joshua makes a distinction between human-aggregated content (e.g. blogs)
and machine aggregators (e.g. search engines). He says:</p>

<p class="quote">"Aggregation hinges on gathering content from other domains. This
dramatically affects the search for content. Users no longer need to start their search
in the domain where the content lies. In fact, they almost never do."</p>

<p>...and then he asks the logical next question: "With all these aggregators providing
new places to start our searches for content, what will become of the home page?"</p>

<p>So we're getting into 'death of the homepage' territory, which I think is currently
one of <a href="http://blog.ziffdavis.com/gillmor/">Steve Gillmor's</a> hobby horses (but
I couldn't find a link tonight). Joshua notes that the homepage is traditionally the top
page in a website information hierarchy, but content aggregators often bypass this:</p>

<p class="quote">"...users navigate completely outside the site containing the target
content. The only page they see is the one that the aggregator links to. So the IA that
ends up getting users to the target content page isn&rsquo;t the one on the site they end
up on, it&rsquo;s the aggregator&rsquo;s site&rsquo;s IA."</p>

<p>Nicely put! I think this is one of the reasons I've gone off the boil in regards to <a
href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/001772.php">weblog ontologies</a> and
taxonomies - it's because RSS and syndication technologies have completely changed the
rules. It's now less about the website as a "place" to organize information - it's more
about how information <i>flows</i>, is aggregated and re-used.&nbsp;</p>

<p>I like how Joshua has put the 'death of the homepage' syndrome into the context of
traditional IA (information architecture) - that ontologies are now just as important, if
not more so, on the "aggregator's site" rather than the content producer's site. Joshua
calls this "distributed navigation".</p>

<p>He goes on to say that it's a user-centered IA - the user makes your content work for
them. Which is how it should be on the Web. Further, aggregators are "promoting a shift
in the control of content" from the producer to the consumer. Again, a user-centered
paradigm. Joshua lists some ways that web designers can tackle this issue - but it's at
that point that I'll tack away to a different perspective.</p>

<p>Joshua's focus in his article
is on the web designer and how distributed navigation is "bypassing much of what
we&rsquo;ve built for them [users]". My interest is more in the underlying technologies -
RSS, Atom, syndication - and their affect on web publishing (...which makes me wonder if
my article will be suited to Digital Web's audience?).</p>

<h2>My initial notes on Design for Data</h2>

<p>So what should I look at in my quest to understand Design for Data? I've noted down
these things to explore:</p>

<p>- <a
href="http://interconnected.org/home/2004/08/24/diego_dovals_atomflow">Atomflow</a> -
Matt Webb and others (see also: <a
href="http://costarica.cs.northwestern.edu/bmd/blogs/nmh/archives/000748.html">1</a>, <a
href="http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2004/08/24/atomflow.html">2</a>)</p>

<p>- <a href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/15/dive.html">Atom API</a> (<a
href="http://www.atomenabled.org/">see also</a>)</p>

<p>- <a href="http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/attentionxml">Attention.xml</a> -
Steve Gillmor and Dave Sifry</p>

<p>- <a href="http://matt.blogs.it/2004/10/05.html#a1584">Matt Mower</a> and <a
href="http://paolo.evectors.it/2004/10/07.html#a2276">Paolo's</a> experiments with "RSS
Archive"</p>

<p>- The latest features in <a href="http://www.blogdigger.com/">Blogdigger</a> and other
content aggregators</p>

<p>- Sir Tim Berners-Lee's <a
href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/002279.php">"semantic web is a program"
theory</a></p>

<p>- The results of Jason Kottke's Design for Web 2.0 session at the Web 2.0 conference
(does anyone know if that workshop was blogged? I haven't been able to find anything on
the Web about it and I even emailed Jason himself, who said he wasn't aware of any
coverage)</p>

<p>- Probably get back into XML - e.g. <a
href="http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2004/01/19.html">Jon Udell's XPath
experiments</a>.</p>

<p>I'm sure there are a bunch of other things to consider. <b>What else do you suggest
I/we explore for Data Design?</b></p>]]>
      
    </content>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2004://1.4295-comment:35587</id>
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    <title>Comment from Andrew on 2004-11-05</title>
    <author>
        <name>Andrew</name>
        <uri>http://www.andrewsw.com/news/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.andrewsw.com/news/">
        <![CDATA[<p>One of the things that I'm realizing is that including JavaScript from other domains (such as providing comment counts from a comment hosting service) is increasingly becoming popular, and as we get more rich content aggregators, this JavaScript also winds up showing up. It enables any page or "content fragment" to be an aggregation of content.</p>

<p>This has the potential to affect layout, and so often the html generated by the JavaScript is intentionally customizable using CSS to facilitate the smooth integration with the page or html-fragment-in-rss.</p>

<p>Beyond that though, certainly things like the use of embedded RDF for things like TrackBack auto-detection and Creative Commons licensing schemes and things like that certainly put an emphasis on the data (and almost no UI for it) (and also on _interacting_ with the data, in the case of the embedded RDF for TrackBack auto-discovery).</p>

<p>I think one thing to note is that as things become more data-centric things like themes and styles can be changed more easily, and so I'm anticipating the death of screen-scraper technologies really really soon, except for really really old sites that aren't upgrading any of their infrastructure.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-11-05T09:07:43Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2004://1.4295-comment:35588</id>
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    <title>Comment from Joshua Porter on 2004-11-05</title>
    <author>
        <name>Joshua Porter</name>
        <uri>http://www.bokardo.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.bokardo.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Hi Richard, </p>

<p>I like the term "Death of the Homepage". Though it probably won't come to that for all applications, I believe web services definitely fit the bill.</p>

<p>About "design for data". I think that's part of the equation...and it solves what is the bane of some web designers lately: that there isn't enough "design" anymore.  If we focus on data as an inspiration for design, then our design will be as unique as our data.</p>

<p>Your mention of attention.xml is very interesting...I hadn't seen that before. What it does is highlight our increasing need for metadata, but we must ask: at what point do we become saturated with metadata? The downside of schemes like this is that we could be simply exchanging metadata, and it will become the content. I don't know if we're at that point yet, but it's fun to think about it.  </p>

<p>The premise of your article: that of how technology is changing web publishing, is fascinating. One route you could take is by showing how the written word has always been affected by technology (serifs, for instance, were the result of chisels) and then push that idea forward to the Web. </p>

<p>At any rate, I'm very interested to see how your article turns out. </p>

<p>Finally, one question that was nagging me as I wrote the article for digital web was this: at what point can we simply exchange ideas? We're getting closer with aggregators, and a fully-realized semantic web will be even closer. The more we rip content away from visual style and present it in different contexts, the more we get closer to pure ideas. That is the goal, isn't it?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-11-05T23:56:56Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2004://1.4295-comment:35589</id>
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    <title>Comment from Richard MacManus on 2004-11-05</title>
    <author>
        <name>Richard MacManus</name>
        <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.readwriteweb.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Excellent comments Andrew and Joshua! I have so much to mull over...</p>

<p>I encourage others to comment - any thoughts and ideas about Data Design, I want to hear them! Let it blurt...</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-11-06T04:41:58Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
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    <title>Comment from Steve Castellano on 2004-11-12</title>
    <author>
        <name>Steve Castellano</name>
        <uri>http://roer.blogs.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://roer.blogs.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Earlier today, I met with two Babson MBA students interested in developing a plan to roll out the proposed Babson Mosaic Equity Research Club initiative.  </p>

<p></p>

<p><br />
The core MBA student management team discussed our possible roles.  A detailed Microsoft Excel 2003 model of Level 3 Communications may become the first "kernel" to be shared with the open source community.   Two more working professional offered to sign on as club advisors in addition to James Enck.  Continuing progress is being made on acquiring a faculty advisor.  We are exploring a variety of online collaborative alternatives.  One suggestion was that start we a BMERC wiki discussion.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2004-11-12T23:14:38Z</published>
  </entry>

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