<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" 
      xmlns:thr="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">
  <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php" />
  <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/atom.xml" />
  <id>tag:,2008:/1/tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-</id>
  <updated>2008-08-22T19:08:01Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Web 2.0 Naysaying reaches an all-time high (or is it low)</title>
  
  <generator uri="http://www.sixapart.com/movabletype/">Movable Type 4.1</generator>
  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601</id>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php" />
    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=4601" title="Web 2.0 Naysaying reaches an all-time high (or is it low)" />
    <published>2005-10-22T10:16:59Z</published>
    <updated>2007-12-16T23:15:52Z</updated>
    <title>Web 2.0 Naysaying reaches an all-time high (or is it low)</title>
    <summary>Looks like the Web 2.0 Naysayers are starting to drown out those of us who&apos;ve been preaching the 2.0 Gospel. Joel on Software, who has a lot of influence in the programming world, comes down hard with his post entitled Architecture Astronauts Are Back: &quot;The term Web 2.0 particularly bugs me. It&apos;s not a real...</summary>
    <author>
      <name>Richard MacManus</name>
      <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Web 2.0 News" />
    
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.readwriteweb.com/">
      <![CDATA[<p>Looks like the Web 2.0 Naysayers are starting to drown out those of us who've been preaching the 2.0 Gospel.</p>

<p>Joel on Software, who has a lot of influence in the programming world, comes down hard with his post entitled <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/10/21.html">Architecture Astronauts Are Back</a>:</p>

<blockquote>"The term Web 2.0 particularly bugs me. It's not a real concept. It has no meaning. It's a big, vague, nebulous cloud of pure architectural nothingness. [...] I hereby pledge never again to use the term "Web 2.0" on this blog, or to link to any article that mentions it."</blockquote>

<p>Yikes! <a href="http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=de6cdd75-81f1-4c1a-978e-e78509b814df">Then Dare Obasanjo</a>, fresh from asking a thousand and one questions at the Web 2.0 Conference, adds:</p>

<blockquote>"I am interested in discussions on the Web as a platform and even folksonomies (not tagging) but the marketplace of ideas has been polluted by all this "Web 2.0" garbage. Once again, I've flipped the bozo bit on Web 2.0. Like Joel, you won't see any use of the term on my blog or in items I link to from now on."</blockquote>

<p>Oh and <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/21/web_two_point_nought_poll/">The Register</a> is having a whale of a time mocking Web 2.0. This is the latest from "Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco":</p>

<blockquote>"Web 2.0 is made of ...
* Badger's paws
* A magic swirling ship
* Javascript worms    
* Recycled copies of Esther Dyson's Release 1.0 newsletter    
* Never mind, just give us the money"</blockquote> 

<p>But really, there's only so much <strong>unconstructive criticism</strong> I can bear. I'm a bit odd like that, but I hate reading cynical things - even if they're witty. So how about I finish this post with something that actually contributes to the Web 2.0 discussion, whether or not you think Web 2.0 is bullshit. <a href="http://www.thetwowayweb.com/2005/10/21#a2082">Dave Winer has</a> some thought-provoking questions:</p>

<blockquote>"Isn't it interesting that between the supposed 1.0 (pet food companies doing high tech IPOs) and 2.0 (build to flip the Flickr of evrything) we changed millennia? Are we still creating monocultures?"</blockquote>

<p>The serious and worrying thing for me is that I'm writing a book about Web 2.0. But then I believe there are a great many things of value in Web 2.0 and that's what keeps me going. My job is to distill all the signal from the noise - and most of the noise is coming from the anti-Web 2.0 brigade currently. I am also trying to pin down the long-term trends for the Web, together with the real disruptive things that are changing the Web.</p>

<p>Oy. So how was <a href="http://www.techcrunch.com/2005/10/21/dave-winer-to-give-the-flickr-of-keynotes-tonight/">the TechCrunch party</a> last night?</p>]]>
      
    </content>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36509</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36509" />
    <title>Comment from Sergey Schetinin on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Sergey Schetinin</name>
        <uri>http://maluke.com/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://maluke.com/">
        <![CDATA[<p>"Not mentioning anything with Web2.0 in it" is particulary dump. What happens when Google will embrace the term? </p>

<p>People who opt for bashing terminology, intead of judging technology by what it is, are irrelevant. Reminds me of the famous old quotes by various public figures about how few people might need a computer, then PC, then Internet. Now it's Web2.0 turn to prove old farts wrong, I guess.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T14:10:11Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36510</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36510" />
    <title>Comment from Commenter 2.0 on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Commenter 2.0</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>What's their name for it? Until they have a better name, it's best to ignore *them*. Early on (3 months ago!) people criticized "AJAX", but that criticism is gone already. These guys will be spouting "Web 2.0" like mad in 3 months when they realize they're being dumb.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T18:24:27Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36511</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36511" />
    <title>Comment from Andrew on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Andrew</name>
        <uri>http://www.heyotwell.com/heyblog</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.heyotwell.com/heyblog">
        <![CDATA[<p>"The serious and worrying thing for me is that I'm writing a book about Web 2.0."</p>

<p>I think at the very least, "Web 2.0" is going to feel dated pretty soon. I like your term "Read/write web" although it's pretty geeky and jargony-sounding. </p>

<p>There is the technology question: is your book about "web 2.0 technologies" or "web 2.0 human behavior". If it's the latter, why not refer to the "shared web" or the "social web" or something?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T18:32:46Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36512</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36512" />
    <title>Comment from Ethan on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Ethan</name>
        <uri>http://www.blackrimglasses.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.blackrimglasses.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>I don't mine the term in situ, what I mind is the term being used as a means of validating things that have no value. Web 2.0 is a fine name, but the concept is getting over-wrought with a lot of hype, and a lot of the things that Joel talks about.</p>

<p>Outside of the coolness of the technology (none of which is entirely new), the core of Web 2.0 is the embracing of the web and data itself for what its good for. If we have to label it, so be it, but I much prefer a quiet revolution to a loud one.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T18:32:58Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36513</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36513" />
    <title>Comment from PeterCashmore on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>PeterCashmore</name>
        <uri>http://www.mashable.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.mashable.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>It'll be interesting to see how Joel manages to avoid linking to anything containing the phrase "web 2.0".  It's a fairly immature thing to say.  </p>

<p>Nonetheless, I'm finding myself using the phrase less and less because it has become associated with so many negative ideas, and many consider it a self-serving meme designed to attract VC funding.  I personally think web 2.0 is a pretty useful phrase, and I plan to continue using it, but only where it contributes to understanding.  A lot of the time, it is actually more accurate to talk about the web as a platform, if that is the aspect you are referring to.  I also have no issue with the word "tagging" - it's certainly much easier than typing "folksonomies".  I'm not sure why Dare dislikes it.</p>

<p>I think ultimately we have to win back the web 2.0 meme, and make sure it's associated with positive, constructive ideas once more.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T19:24:25Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36514</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36514" />
    <title>Comment from Allen Varney on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Allen Varney</name>
        <uri>http://www.allenvarney.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.allenvarney.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Part of the reaction stems from the vagueness of the label, the unexamined buzzwords ("permanent beta," woohoo!), the lack of compelling apps (online mail/to-do lists/RSS readers/bookmarks, woohoo!), and the lack of convincing business models beyond Google AdWords. In fact, the number of these 2.0 startups who have founded their entire business model on scraping everyone else's sites is quite annoying.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T19:25:38Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36515</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36515" />
    <title>Comment from martin on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>martin</name>
        <uri>http://phaidon.philo.at/martin</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://phaidon.philo.at/martin">
        <![CDATA[<p>peter (#5) is right. it is a language game. fight back to win back the meme!</p>

<p>"We can easily imagine people amusing themselves in a field by playing with a ball so as to start various existing games, but playing many without finishing them and in between throwing the ball aimlessly into the air, chasing one another with the ball and bombarding one another for a joke and so on. And now someone says: The whole time they are playing a ball-game and following definite rules at every throw. And is there not also the case where we play and-make up the rules as we go along? And there is even one where we alter them-as we go along."</p>

<p>"See how far this new model of language is from the model of language as a calculus?  Yes, there are rules, but the rules are not binding in the same way that they are in calculus.  The rules of langauge do not confine every movement that is made. In languge, one can stop, metaphorically speaking, to toss the ball up into the air."</p>

<p>And finally: "Imagine people playing football, kicking the ball in the air, chasing, fouling each other. Is there not the case to make up the rules as we go along?" </p>

<p>having been socialized in the post-punk era, i see no problem in using ugly buzzwords. quite the contrary.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T20:53:23Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36516</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36516" />
    <title>Comment from Wade Schuette on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>Wade Schuette</name>
        <uri>http://cscwteam.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://cscwteam.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Well, it might be good to propose some dimensions along which the web is evolving. A really good definition of "Web2.0" would probably involve defining as well what "Web3.0" it was taking us toward next.</p>

<p>Are we in a social-bandwidth expansion, or OSI Level climbing, where we're going from passing data to conversations to systems designed to build lasting relationships, trust, compassion, and coherence?  </p>

<p>Are we moving along a path going from data to knowledge to wisdom?  </p>

<p>Are we synthesizing a social problem-solving network that finally has broken the "committee barrier" and where (N+1) people can work on a task simultaneously and come up with uniformly better results than (N) people could, without limit?</p>

<p>Are we moving from data-processing to context-processing to an actual interpersonal/intercultural universal translator system where someone can "hear" the message you intended to "send", instead of something else?</p>

<p>Are we slowly eliminating the need for "elected officials" because now it actually is possible to hold "meetings of the whole country" and vote on things, real-time, as they happen, instead of delegating our votes to people who then do something different than we would?</p>

<p>Are we finally on the right road to eliminating hunger, poverty, injustice, and just plain stupidity by collectively making better decisions than we ever did before?</p>

<p>Are we any closer to stopping World War III than we were a decade ago, at least by bringing the distant closer, learning about each other's needs and goals, and finding win -win solutions?</p>

<p>All of which is to say, maybe we should be looking at the outputs of the technology, not the inputs, to determine what kind of animal it is.   It is what it does.</p>

<p>Does the system make it easier to find a successful first date yet?  Does it make it easier to get from first date to second date? Does it make it easier to sustain a relationship across a lifetime of troubles, raise decent human being children, and feel good about it?</p>

<p>Have we cut down suicide, lonliness, depression, fragmentation, homicide, domestic violence, or even obesity?  </p>

<p>Something like 2/3 of the US Health Care bill is due to behavioral issues, not viruses or bacteria.  Have we found out how to help lean on each other constructively so we can be all we can be and cope with an amazingly complicated life, without needing the drugs?</p>

<p>There's a huge amount of social need that all this new stuff, "web 2.0", whatever it is, is moving towards filling.  More power to it.</p>

<p>"Encourage each other to care. Empower each other to dare."   How's that for an agenda?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-22T23:13:11Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36517</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36517" />
    <title>Comment from WD Milner on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>WD Milner</name>
        <uri>http://www.milner.ca</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.milner.ca">
        <![CDATA[<p>It's just my opinion of course but "Web 2.0" has been so over-hyped that it has become a null term. </p>

<p>Everyone "knows" what it means, except that it seems to mean something slightly different to everyone, with the end result that it iffectively means nothing and is becoming (has become ?) just more empty marketing technobabble.</p>

<p>The new technologies are real, and innovative advances have been made, but I think perhaps it is a mistake to try and lump them all under an umberella "version" as if they were some form of software suite.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-23T01:15:26Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36518</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36518" />
    <title>Comment from pitsch on 2005-10-22</title>
    <author>
        <name>pitsch</name>
        <uri>http://www.grimetime.de</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.grimetime.de">
        <![CDATA[<p>the problem is the business aspect. to make a distinction between web 1.0 and web 2.0 has only one major cause: the dot com crash. fine, come up now, with the same rethorics and warm up proposals which are as old as difficult to realize. good: flickr was a piece of art, it is based on multi user gaming architecture, they deserve all credits for their playability. then there is the semantic web, web services, web applications. NOTHING NEW. already now, east coast VCs heating up the greed machine. how many web aggregators are there already? how many podcast portals? and how many blogs about blogging, and podcasts about podcasting? the only disruptive thing is if a hurricane like wilma in front of of the bay area would change this situation...</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-23T01:53:59Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36519</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36519" />
    <title>Comment from eWhisper on 2005-10-23</title>
    <author>
        <name>eWhisper</name>
        <uri>http://www.VisibilityGenie.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.VisibilityGenie.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>I don't think everyone is looking at the concepts vs the name yet.</p>

<p>The concepts of web 2.0 are very sound, and do indicate where the web is going.</p>

<p>However, the name is holding many back as the web has gone through several iterations already.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-23T13:07:31Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601-comment:36520</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:72.47.210.69,2005://1.4601" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/web_20_naysayin.php#c36520" />
    <title>Comment from JohnnyLab on 2005-10-23</title>
    <author>
        <name>JohnnyLab</name>
        <uri>http://www.flopidesign.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.flopidesign.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>I feel for you, although at times I think there can be a lot of hype in this business about the next "way of doing things." I have come to accept that is how are culture is. I think many of the nay sayers are tired of hearing the term used vaguely by people who are just trying take look good or make a quick buck. The key to win them over is to be specific and not preachy when discussing it. Keep it real. In the end it IS just another way doibg things. For those of us who have been around for the past decade we know soon something else will come along...</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2005-10-23T14:55:39Z</published>
  </entry>

</feed>