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  <updated>2008-07-07T14:32:01Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Future Of Web Apps, Day 2</title>
  
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    <published>2007-02-21T21:33:54Z</published>
    <updated>2007-12-16T23:11:05Z</updated>
    <title>Future Of Web Apps, Day 2</title>
    <summary>Written by David Lenehan of Polldaddy and edited by Richard MacManus. This is David&apos;s account of the second and final day of the Future Of Web Apps 2007 conference in London. Adobe Today started with Mark Anders, Adobe&apos;s senior principal scientist. Mark previously had worked on the Microsoft .NET project from it inception until 2003....</summary>
    <author>
      <name>David Lenehan</name>
      
    </author>
    
    <category term="Conferences" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p><i>Written by <b>David
Lenehan of <a href="http://www.polldaddy.com">Polldaddy</a></b> and edited by Richard
MacManus. This is David's account of the second and final day of the <a
href="http://www.futureofwebapps.com/">Future Of Web Apps 2007</a> conference in
London.</i></p>

<h2>Adobe</h2>

<p><img border="0" src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/397927170_122316734a_m.jpg"
align="right" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="180" height="240" />Today started with Mark Anders, Adobe's senior principal scientist. Mark previously
had worked on the Microsoft .NET project from it inception until 2003. He gave a good
technical demonstration of <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/">Flex</a> and
then created an application on the fly, to search for photos on Flickr. He also showed
off an online photo editing site called <a href="http://www.picnik.com/">picnik</a>,
which was built with Flex.&nbsp;</p>

<p>In other Adobe news, Actionscript 3 - which ships with the Flash 9 plugin - has some
impressive improvements and now runs at up to 10 times faster than AS 2.0 in some
circumstances. Going forward Adobe's <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarin_(JIT)">Tamarin</a>&nbsp;(a.k.a. JavaScript
2), which was donated last year to the Mozilla project of the same name, will now be shipped with FireFox 4 - which is 2 versions away.</p>

<h2>The future of the web browser</h2>

<p>Chris Wilson from Microsoft, who has worked&nbsp;on&nbsp;Internet Expolorer from
version&nbsp;3 up, was here to talk about the future of the web browser. He looked back
at the days when Outlook Web Access was one of the most advanced web apps around and
was&nbsp;using AJAX before it was even called AJAX. He talked about the rebirth of the
semantic web movement with RSS, microformats, and tagging. He ultimately&nbsp;talked at
length about IE 7 and the importance of security, standards support and more.&nbsp;</p>

<p><img border="0"
src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/126/397685241_fe46c4c25e.jpg?v=0" /><br />
 <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/li703/397685241/">Pic: Li==703</a></p>

<p>I am a web developer and I spend most of my time trying to work within browser
limitations. But I don't buy the idea that IE 7 is a progressive browser. It
has&nbsp;taken about 6 years for them to release a new version - and there is nothing
revolutionary&nbsp;about it. They fixed all of the IE 6 bugs and added a list of modern
features, that we had already seen in FireFox. Yes IE 7 is at last a good stable browser
from Microsoft, which has addressed the security issues that had plagued IE 5 and
6,&nbsp;along with the problems with&nbsp;lack of&nbsp;standards compliance, but I don't
think they deserve a pat on the back for that.&nbsp;</p>]]>
      <![CDATA[<p>Chris Wilson also addressed an issue that is for some people the holy grail in terms
of developing products for IE - having multiple versions of IE running on one machine. In
short he said that this just would not be possible now or in the future. It just can't be
done, so no joy there. Not really a lot of information on the future of the browser in
the end, but looking forward the&nbsp;<a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation">wpf/e</a> browser
plugin is coming soon as a possible competitor for flash - and by the looks of it, it
might just cause a few shock waves.</p>

<h2>Lunchtime Panel Discussion</h2>

<p><img border="0"
src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/397815605_ac342828ff.jpg?v=0" /><br />
 <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/criminalintent/397815605/">Pic: Larsz</a></p>

<p>The following people were involved in the panel:</p>

<ul>
<li>Mike Butcher (Chair) - <a href="http://www.vecosys.com/">Vecosys.com</a></li>

<li>Tariq Krim - <a href="http://www.netvibes.com/">NetVibes</a></li>

<li>Chris Messina - <a href="http://www.citizenagency.com/">Citizen Agency</a></li>

<li>Dave Nicholson - <a href="http://www.zopa.com/">Zopa</a></li>

<li>Colin Donald - <a href="http://www.futurescape.co.uk/">Futurescape</a></li>

<li>Richard Moross - <a href="http://www.moo.com/">Moo</a></li>

<li>Max Jenning - <a href="http://www.emomentum.co.uk/">eMomentum</a></li>
</ul>

<p>The lunchtime discussion was based on the topic: "European start-up culture - playing
catch up to the US". It was a fairly brief and humorous discussion between the audience
and the panel members about this hot topic. The&nbsp;thoughts&nbsp;of the panel included
Ryan Carson voicing the need for some kind of bigco sponsored incubation centers, with
access to lawyers and business advisors to help foster new businesses. Mike Arrington
bluntly stated that people here need to stop talking about doing it and just do it. Mike
Butcher felt that the UK and Ireland has a very talented pool of creative people in this
industry, but there are structural and cultural barriers to over come.&nbsp;</p>

<p>The rest of the panel talked about the problems with access to seed capital and the
fact that there have been some very successful companies in Europe, such as Skype, who
should be an inspiration to local startups here. There were some good questions from the
audience, but there was just not enough time to discuss this topic. George Bush was
dragged into it, Arrington called for the BBC to be dissolved and Tariq Krim was accused
of using his position to chat up girls in Silicon Valley! A good show though overall.</p>

<h2>The Mobile Web</h2>

<p><img border="0" src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/397702127_75f01b07dd_m.jpg"
align="left" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="240" height="180" />At last some talk of the
mobile world came in the form of Daniel Appelquist from <a
href="http://www.vodafone.co.uk/">Vodafone</a>. The first thing he did was to find out,
by way of the raising of audience hands, who used their mobile to access the web
regularly. This showed that most people in the room here use a mobile device to access
the web on a regular basis, and that most had even done so in the past 24 hours. A very
interesting fact that is obvious when you read it, but very interesting at the same time,
is that there are up to 4 times more mobile devices in use around the world that have web
access, than there are computer and laptops with web access. These numbers are
confirmation of just how big this space really is. In the UK vodafone data shows that the
biggest destinations for web users are Hotmail,&nbsp;BBC News and then Google. He talked
at length about the need for more adoption of standards by mobile
developers.&nbsp;Vodafone has a best practices list that they
advise&nbsp;everyone&nbsp;to follow:</p>

<p>- Design for one web<br />
 - Rely on web standards<br />
 - Stay away from known hazards<br />
 - Be cautious of device limitations<br />
 - Optimize navigation<br />
 - Check graphics and colors<br />
 - Keep it small<br />
 - Use the network sparingly<br />
 - Help and guide user input<br />
 - Think of users on the move</p>

<p>He also stressed the importance of thematic consistency for your content, across
mobile and more traditional browsers, to ensure a comfortable user experience. For more
info on best practices, check out: <a
href="http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/techs/">http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI<wbr />
/BPWG/techs/</a></p>

<h2>NetVibes Announcement</h2>

<p><img border="0" src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/397793224_fad648372c_m.jpg"
align="right" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="240" height="180" />Tariq Krim from <a
href="http://www.netvibes.com/">Netvibes</a> made a quick announcement&nbsp;about their
new universal widget API.&nbsp;&nbsp;You will now be able to develop a widget for
Netvibes and it will work across&nbsp;a whole host of&nbsp;other platforms, such as
google desktop etc. You can see a preview of it here next week: <a
href="http://eco.netvibes.com/uwa">http://eco.netvibes.com/uwa</a>. He also mentioned
that they are going to support OpenID&nbsp;in the near future.</p>

<h2>NYTimes.com</h2>

<p>Khoi Vinh, design director for the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/">New York
Times</a>, said that "the future is going to be awesome!" He talked about the
problems&nbsp;they had in coming to terms with using the web as an effective outlet for
their content, and interestingly how they tried to use the same templates in terms of
content and layout where ever possible, both in the print and online versions. They
understood that it was important to open up a dialogue with their readers, obviously
learning from the power of the blogosphere in communicating with their readers in this
way.&nbsp;</p>

<p>NYTimes has some cool new community applications to enhance the&nbsp;user experience.
<a href="http://my.nytimes.com/">MyTimes</a> is a sort of start page app that you can use
to pick and choose the kind&nbsp;of content from their site that you want to see. <a
href="http://www.nytimes.com/partners/hotpage/">TimesFile</a> is a bookmarking system for
creating your own archive of stories you like. Integrating one click sharing with digg,
newsvine etc. has helped to&nbsp;generate&nbsp;more and more readers.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Vinh also talked about the problems that many sites have to deal with in displaying
'counter-quality sources' - such as high def video and quality photographs from a digital
SLR, right down to YouTube quality video and images taken on camera phones etc.</p>

<h2>Opining on OpenID</h2>

<p>Simon&nbsp;Willision was here to&nbsp;help promote the <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openid">OpenID</a> standard, and he talked very
passionately about it. He also talked extremely fast, so please excuse me if I have noted
anything incorrectly here. With a number of high profile sites recently announcing
support for OpenID, such as AOL and Digg, it is a topic that is really beginning to come
out of the shadows and into the realm of wide spread adoption. <i>[Ed: see <a
href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/poll_do_you_use_openid.php">Read/WriteWeb's
current poll</a> for more on this topic]</i>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Simon started by addressing the all important question of: "what problem does it
solve?" Well its simple, if it takes off - all of us will just have one&nbsp;ID and
password to log in and out of all of our accounts. Keeping track of all your account
information is a nightmare, if you have a very bad memory like I have. I'm not going to
go into too much detail about how OpenID works, but what sets it apart from similar
systems is that it goes a long way to solving one big stumbling block people have with
this concept - would you trust one company with managing your identity? With OpenID
anyone can manage your identity, it's up to you to choose&nbsp;that provider. Once you do
choose a provider, which at the moment could be live journal for example, all you have to
do is log into that&nbsp;OpenID account once and then you can go to any site that
supports OpenID, enter your&nbsp;ID and password, and your details will be confirmed
against your provider. That's it, one login for all of your sites.&nbsp;</p>

<p>One great concept of OpenID is that you can create multiple personas on the one ID.
You create a persona that you want to submit to a particular site, and another one that
you want to submit to a different type of site. So I might choose to make up a fake name
to use on my AOL account and not hand over very much address information, while at the
same time&nbsp;I might choose to give far more accurate data over to my Digg account,
through a different persona attached to my OpenID.</p>

<p>In Simon's own words, the things that "suck" about OpenID are various issues
surrounding phishing and security, but I'm sure most of these can be overcome. One
interesting benefit of OpenID is that when a user comments on a blog, he/she can be added
to a whitelist as a trusted user. When a user or bot enters spam into a blog comment,
they can be added to a blacklist. These lists can then be shared amongst bloggers
through&nbsp;various yet to be invented&nbsp;systems, which would help identify the good
users from the bad. I think it's very clear from this simple example, that the idea of
rating users based on their behavior, and this then being shared between applications,
would help streamline a lot of avenues on the web. One downside I see&nbsp;with a third
party holding your info, is that they will be able to track your activity across the web
with very little effort - but you do get to choose your own provider that you trust and
so you are not locked into any particular one. But the stakes are higher with OpenID, if
it's adopted, because any security breach of the data would be disastrous. Get
someone's&nbsp;OpenID details and you get access to all of their sites.</p>

<h2>Summary</h2>

<p>The Future of Web Apps conference came to a close today. They are hosting a day of
workshops tomorrow, which should be very informative. I talked with conference organizer
Ryan Carson for a while today and he said that the next FOWA was going to take place in
the US in September; and again in London this time next year. If you are near one in the
future, I would definitely advise you to go along. It is good value for money and is
small enough that you get to meet a lot of the people speaking, to talk with them further
on&nbsp;a one to one basis. As with any conference like this, there are also ample
opportunities to network. I for one have enjoyed the past few days.</p>

<p><i>Ed: Thanks so much to David for summarizing the two days for those of us who
couldn't attend.</i></p>

<p>Photo credits: donkeyontheedge [<a
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bozo/397702127/">1</a>, <a
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bozo/397793224/">2</a>] and <a
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/carlgaywood/397927170/">carl_gaywood</a></p>]]>
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  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3532-comment:29398</id>
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    <title>Comment from Lawrence on 2007-02-21</title>
    <author>
        <name>Lawrence</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>"...an issue that is for some people the holy grail in terms of developing products for IE - having multiple versions of IE running on one machine. In short he said that this just would not be possible now or in the future."</p>

<p>Seriously? That kind of answer must make developers' blood boil. It used to be that MSFT was, if nothing else, deeply devoted to making developers' lives easier. This answer above is just one more thing that proves they still even after all this time, just don't get web development. </p>

<p>My first response to that "you can't ever do it" answer is: "Bite me, Chris Wilson. If I need to pirate Windows to do this, I happily will."</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-02-22T00:57:36Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3532-comment:29399</id>
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    <title>Comment from Steve Boyd on 2007-02-21</title>
    <author>
        <name>Steve Boyd</name>
        <uri>http://www.emtek.net.nz</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.emtek.net.nz">
        <![CDATA[<p>"...an issue that is for some people the holy grail in terms of developing products for IE - having multiple versions of IE running on one machine. In short he said that this just would not be possible now or in the future."</p>

<p>cmon how hard can this possibly be to implement</p>

<p>IE7 -> (some obscure option hidden away from the general public) -> render HMTL like IE6.  Then just include the IE6 module that renders webpages.</p>

<p>I think Micropenis have managed to convince themselves it's impossible when it's actually really quite easy</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-02-22T05:27:27Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3532-comment:29400</id>
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    <title>Comment from Yihong Ding on 2007-02-23</title>
    <author>
        <name>Yihong Ding</name>
        <uri>http://yihongs-research.blogspot.com/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://yihongs-research.blogspot.com/">
        <![CDATA[<p>great article.  Although I have heard OpenID for a while, I have not really had time to look at it.  But you have given a very good discussion about it.  Thank you so much.  Surely I like the other part of this article too. ;-)</p>

<p>Yihong</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-02-23T17:56:08Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3532-comment:29401</id>
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    <title>Comment from Chris Wilson [MS] on 2007-02-26</title>
    <author>
        <name>Chris Wilson [MS]</name>
        <uri>http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso">
        <![CDATA[<p>Actually, I said it is not possible to put all of IE5/IE5.5/IE6/IE7 side-by-side on a single OS install at one time.  That's simply true - they weren't designed that way.  IE consists of a bunch of Windows system components, and installing a new version of IE updates those components for the entire system.  There are hacks that let it run "kind of" side-by-side - go look in my blog for a back post on multiple IE versions for a link - but they are hacks and are not replacing everything, and are by design somewhat fragile.</p>

<p>In short, it's not just about rendering HTML - it's about the script engine, and the timing of network events, and where your settings and your cache get stored and shared (or not).  Mr Boyd, I'd encourage you to understand the problem more deeply before deciding that we are simply stupid and it's really easy.  It isn't.</p>

<p>This is not "we don't think it's important" or even "we will never make multiple versions of IE capable of running side-by-side in the future" - it is recognition that we cannot turn back time and modify IE6 so it is side-by-side with IE 5.5 without making it into something that is not quite IE6.  Pirating Windows wouldn't help you, as that's not the issue.  In fact, the point of me saying all at FOWA this was to point out that we've released - COMPLETELY FREE - Virtual PC and a Windows XP image with IE6 on it, so that any web developer can use virtualization to run IE6 and IE7 side-by-side.  All it costs you is the disk space for the VPC image.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-02-26T20:28:04Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
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    <title>Comment from Sheirf Mansour on 2007-03-02</title>
    <author>
        <name>Sheirf Mansour</name>
        <uri>http://www.blog.sherifmansour.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.blog.sherifmansour.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the in-depth article. Its very interesting to see where this is all headed. I recently posted an article on a podcast I heard from the Google CEO (http://blog.sherifmansour.com/?p=27), and it's interesting to see how you picked up on similar aspects. It seems that it will be both a combination of the 'Web 2.0' AJAX vibe as well as how browsers will begin to shape caching web applications with the new and upcoming versions of IE and Firefox....</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-02T22:54:05Z</published>
  </entry>

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