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  <id>tag:,2009:/1/tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-</id>
  <updated>2009-10-30T14:51:56Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Jakob Nielsen Sounds Off About Web 2.0... Again!</title>
  
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=3791" title="Jakob Nielsen Sounds Off About Web 2.0... Again!" />
    <published>2007-05-17T20:22:12Z</published>
    <updated>2007-12-16T23:11:30Z</updated>
    <title>Jakob Nielsen Sounds Off About Web 2.0... Again!</title>
    <summary>Over the past few years, web usability guru Jakob Nielsen&apos;s star has been waning. Ever since the web 2.0 trend started to become popular (around 2004 till now), Nielsen&apos;s &apos;keep it simple&apos; design philosophy has failed to ignite the new generation of designers. But it&apos;s not the &apos;keep it simple&apos; philosophy in general that is...</summary>
    <author>
      <name>Richard MacManus</name>
      <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Analysis" />
    
    <category term="Web Design" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/107653159_cf01a93377_m.jpg" align="left" hspace="5" vspace="5" />Over the past few years, web usability guru Jakob Nielsen's star has been waning. Ever since the web 2.0 trend started to become popular (around 2004 till now), Nielsen's 'keep it simple' design philosophy has failed to ignite the new generation of designers. But it's not the 'keep it simple' philosophy in general that is the cause of this decline in Nielsen's influence - you only need to look at the enormously popular <a href="http://www.37signals.com/svn/">37Signals</a> to see that the 'simple' design approach is alive and well. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that 37Signals frontman Jason Fried is the new Jakob Nielsen. But instead of acknowledging that he has fallen behind the times, Nielsen insists on continuing to blame web 2.0 itself - with broad attacks and little in the way of specific examples.</p>
<p>Nielsen's latest tirade has been broadcast by the BBC, in a piece entitled <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6653119.stm">Web 2.0 'neglecting good design'</a>. I came across this <a href="http://hiteshmehta.in/?p=8">via Hitesh Mehta</a>, a Communication Designer who sent a passionate email to tips@readwriteweb.com, upset at Mr Nielsen's views on web 2.0 design.</p>]]>
      <![CDATA[  <p>Let's look at the BBC article. Nielsen told the Beeb that web 2.0 design often neglects "the basics". But the problem I have with Mr Nielsen's complaints is that he talks in generalities and does not offer any specific examples. Take this quote:</p>
  <blockquote>
    <p>"They should get the basics right first," he said. "Sadly most websites do not have those primary things right."</p>
    <p>There was a risk, he said, of a return to the dotcom boom days when many sites, such as Boo.com, looked great but were terrible to use.</p>
    <p>"That was just bad," he said. "The idea of community, user generated content and more dynamic web pages are not inherently bad in the same way, they should be secondary to the primary things sites should get right."</p>
    <p>"The main criticism or problem is that I do not think these things are as useful as the primary things," he said.</p>
  </blockquote>
  <p>You see what he's done there? By broadly comparing web 2.0 sites to one of the worst offenders in the dot com era (boo.com), he's basically saying that web 2.0 = dot com. But he doesn't mention a single web 2.0 site as evidence. Frankly, I fail to see any similarity between YouTube's easy to use, user content-focused design (for example) and the bloated, interactive-before-its-time design of boo.com. Can you? The "primary thing" of YouTube is for users to watch and contribute video, and foster conversations around that video. And to my mind, YouTube's design succeeds wonderfully in that "primary thing". So what "basics" is YouTube not doing right?</p>
  <p>OK Nielsen may have a point if we used MySpace as an example, because it is true that MySpace is not overly usable - its design is crowded and cluttered. But it works... unlike boo.com! I'm sure 37Signals would say that MySpace is also an example of bad web 2.0 design, but I'm also sure they wouldn't tarnish all of web 2.0 design with the MySpace brush. And that is what annoys me about Nielsen - he makes broad, general statements decreeing web 2.0 design is 'bad'. But if he looked a bit closer, he'd see very well designed sites/apps like 37Signals' Basecamp or blogger.com. Not to mention huge mainstream sites like YouTube and Wikipedia, which may not be winning any design awards - but they are more than adequate designs. Certainly not boo.com-like.</p>
  <p>When he focuses in on specific usability issues, Mr Nielsen begins to sound a little more reasonable. For example he says:</p>
<blockquote>  <p>"While some sites with particular demographics, such as MySpace, Facebook and Bebo, have large involved communities of users that will not hold true for all sites, he said.</p>
  <p>"Most people just want to get in, get it and get out," said Mr Nielsen. "For them the web is not a goal in itself. It is a tool."</p>
  <p>Web firms rushing to serve the small, committed minority might find they make a site far less useful to the vast majority who come to a site for a specific purpose."</p></blockquote>
  <p>Of course it is true that most people will not contribute content to a site, they just want to "get in and get out" - i.e. get what they came for and browse off to another site. But once again, where are the examples of small web 2.0 sites that "serve the small, committed minority" and overlook the majority? Nielsen leaves that to our imagination. I can think of a few such sites - e.g. you could argue that del.icio.us is too hard for "the vast majority" of people to use. But I don't think any web designer would use del.icio.us as a template for a small business website, although they might certainly take aspects of del.icio.us and integrate them.</p>
  
    <p>Hitesh Mehta provides an excellent <a href="http://hiteshmehta.in/?p=8">counter-example</a> to Nielsen:</p>
  <blockquote><p>"One of the finest example of web2.0 'personalization tool' is NetVibes.com and without neglecting the good design and usability. I have been using netvibes.com right from the beginning. Every minute I get fresh news, fresh feeds from the dozens of sites I subscribed at netvibes. This is simply amazing and is getting better and better everyday."</p>
  </blockquote>
  <p>I agree with Hitesh, there are many ways that web 2.0 sites are implementing good design - but at the same time taking advantage of new trends such as personalization and user-generated content.</p>
 <p>So once again, broad brush Mr Nielsen! You can do better. I've read your books for years, ever since I was a webmaster back in the 90's. But I think you have lost the plot. Why not subscribe to a few web 2.0 blogs, including 37Signals, and discover some of the excellent 'simple' web 2.0 design that is out there. Stop comparing web 2.0 to boo.com - it is both short-sighted and very misleading for the great number of web designers that still follow your work.</p>
  <p>Image credit: <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/heather/107653159/">heather</a></p>]]>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32619</id>
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    <title>Comment from John Eckman on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>John Eckman</name>
        <uri>http://www.openparenthesis.org/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.openparenthesis.org/">
        <![CDATA[<p>What I wondered on reading the BBC article (and asked in another comment somewhere else, I believe) is: why are they running the article now?</p>

<p>Did he just say these things? It looked to me like a BBC author just found somewhere where Neilsen said these things a long time ago. </p>

<p>In other words, is he ranting again, or is the BBC just printing old rants? </p>

<p>The article never mentions anything about when or where he said these things - what happened the five w's?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-17T20:43:19Z</published>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32620</id>
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    <title>Comment from Dominic Jones on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Dominic Jones</name>
        <uri>http://www.irwebreport.com/daily/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.irwebreport.com/daily/">
        <![CDATA[<p>Some of the best, most usable designs I've seen are on Web 2.0 sites. I think of how quick it is to start a blog on Blogger and marvel. But then that simple process was the result of many hours of work by usability experts.</p>

<p>There are good and bad sites, but many more bad Web 1.0 sites than bad Web 2.0 sites.</p>

<p>Where I see problems, and where I agree with Jakob, is when companies with bad Web 1.0 sites start "upgrading" and using Web 2.0 tools. Ever notice how poorly your average corporate website implements RSS feeds? It's astonishing how few know about autodiscovery, for instance.</p>

<p>So yes, there is a problem, but it's less to do with authentic Web 2.0 sites and more to do with old Web 1.0 sites trying to be more like Web 2.0 sites. They're doing stuff for the sake of it, and because they think it makes them cool.</p>

<p>I think that's what Jakob was really commenting on. If he wasn't, then he's wrong.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-17T21:45:42Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32621</id>
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    <title>Comment from Brian on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Brian</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>Can I have back the 3 mins i just spent reading your tirade. There's plenty of bad design to go around for everybody, web1.0, web2.0 and as soon as web3.0 gets here i'm sure we'll find it there too.</p>

<p>i read the bbc article - i dont think jacob is saying web2.0 = bad design. Only that bad design exists within web2.0. is he still relevant is a better question.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-17T23:53:50Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32622</id>
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    <title>Comment from Ben Long on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Ben Long</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>I like R/WW. Please do not get into the habit of sensationalism, especially when it takes the form of blasting a steward of the Web simply because he states facts or opinions that you or your readers do not want to hear.</p>

<p>I was an early Flash developer, and I wasn't one of Nielsen's biggest fans when he said, "Flash = 90% bad". He alienated an entire community with one simple sentence.</p>

<p>Then I grew up. And in retrospect - he was right.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T00:48:45Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32623</id>
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    <title>Comment from soxiam on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>soxiam</name>
        <uri>http://www.soxiam.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.soxiam.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Obey him, mock him, do what you will but keep this in mind. When was the last time you saw Jakob Nielsen's design that perfectly aligned with what he preaches? Anyone can be a critic. Anyone can operate in a vacuum of theories and hypothesis. Reality of web design and web usability on the other hand is far more difficult to master than sanctimonious regurgitation.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T01:24:32Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32624</id>
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    <title>Comment from Richard MacManus on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Richard MacManus</name>
        <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.readwriteweb.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, tough crowd today. Here are some responses...</p>

<p>1) John asked "why are they running the article now?" <br />
--> good question, as there is no indication of when or where Nielsen made these remarks.</p>

<p>2) Dominic said: "They're doing stuff for the sake of it, and because they think it makes them cool." </p>

<p>--> Agreed, if Nielsen was referring to that then he has a point. But I don't think the majority of web designers are doing that kind of thing.</p>

<p>3) Brian said: "i read the bbc article - i dont think jacob is saying web2.0 = bad design. Only that bad design exists within web2.0. is he still relevant is a better question."</p>

<p>--> actually I thought that's what he was saying... that was how I read it anyway. </p>

<p>4) Ben, thanks for your comment - I didn't mean it to come across as sensationalism, it is just that I am tired of hearing Nielsen put down web 2.0 in such broad brushstrokes. </p>

<p>But I have to ask you about your statement: "I was an early Flash developer, and I wasn't one of Nielsen's biggest fans when he said, "Flash = 90% bad". He alienated an entire community with one simple sentence. Then I grew up. And in retrospect - he was right."</p>

<p>How was he right about Flash? Apart from the sin of flash splash pages, Flash has proven to be a very useful technology - many excellent interactive apps and sites use it. I really don't see how it is "90% bad"??</p>

<p>5) soxiam said: "When was the last time you saw Jakob Nielsen's design that perfectly aligned with what he preaches?"</p>

<p>--> Jakob Nielsen's website pretty much mirrors what he preaches. Nothing wrong with that in principle, but he hasn't yet implemented RSS feeds or gone much beyond breadcrumb trails as far as I can see.</p>

<p>But let me be clear, I have bought Nielsen books in the past and I still think he produces great books even now. But I just wish he stopped making broad attacks against the current trends in web design. If he specifically pointed to instances where something is 'bad', then that is fine.</p>]]>
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    <published>2007-05-18T01:58:44Z</published>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32625</id>
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    <title>Comment from Hitesh Mehta on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Hitesh Mehta</name>
        <uri>http://www.hiteshmehta.in</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.hiteshmehta.in">
        <![CDATA[<p>This is for Brian:</p>

<p>You are right, jakob is not saying web2.0 = design. At the same time is he talking abt web2.0 neglecting good design.. and the only answer to that is:</p>

<p>"Other web2.0 sites with great technology and bad design, purely needs good designers" which i have already mentioned on my post <a href="http://hiteshmehta.in/?p=8" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://hiteshmehta.in/?p=8" rel="nofollow">http://hiteshmehta.in/?p=8</a></a></p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T05:08:17Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32626</id>
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    <title>Comment from Ben Long on 2007-05-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Ben Long</name>
        <uri>http://www.jumpcut.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.jumpcut.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Nielsen made his comments on Flash to embolden the community, not alienate it. The problem at the time (similar to today), was few voices were heard by the herd, and those voices said, "Flash gooood, Nielsen baaaad." I fell for it.</p>

<p>At the time when Nielsen made his comments on Flash, modern Web design was in its infancy. Instead of enhancing the experience, many designers were (inadvertently) using Flash in ways that hindered user experience. This was a result of poor standards support in Flash, and little understanding of usability.</p>

<p>Flash was used for anything and everything. Navigation, 'cool' content displays, massive downloads with no progress or status, small fonts, hard to read aliased text, no back button or bookmarks. Every designer was forced to create their own versions of scroll bars and standard form controls. Every scroll bar looked and behaved differently. Yuck.</p>

<p>I believe it was Nielsen's comments on poor usability that motivated Macromedia to build standardization into the platform. Future versions of Flash included basic internationalization support, better integration with the browser (back button and bookmarking), and the birth of Macromedia's "Halo" themed controls, including list boxes, combos, grids, buttons, panes, etc.</p>

<p>Looking back, Flash was not helping Web usability. Flash has since changed, and I agree there are many wonderful Flash applications today.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T05:56:20Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32627</id>
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    <title>Comment from Jack on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Jack</name>
        <uri>http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/">
        <![CDATA[<p>Jakob Nielsen was just in London for a usability conference. I had lunch with him (and taped an interview) on May 10. I imagine the BBC talked to him around the same time. Either way, the fact that something was said last week or 10 years ago doesn't make it right, or wrong. For those of us who lived through the mainframe era, a lot of Web 2.0 is deja vu.<br />
      <br />
I have some good stuff on the design of Jakob's Useit site but no home for it. I'll probably write it up for the Guardian Technology blog but at the moment I have too many print deadlines to cope ;-)<br />
     <br />
Jakob was right about Flash at the time, but rather too much of the blogosphere works the same as "mob rule". Most people don't think for themselves, if they think at all: they just echo the crowd. This was probably always the case, it's just that blogging makes it all too obvious.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T09:43:45Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32628</id>
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    <title>Comment from Laurence Ketteringham on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Laurence Ketteringham</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>I think Nielsen is largely correct and that web designers do need to keep usability in mind when they make websites. If the usability things he talks about can be included, even if it requires more care and/or time, then that will make a site better, without necessarily detracting from the site in any other way.<br />
I imagine he‚Äôs not being specific about particular sites being ‚Äòbad‚Äô as he wants to raise a general point rather than start a war with emotional defenders of these sites. There are plenty of other places to go to find reams of pointers to bad web design if examples are needed.<br />
Regarding Flash, I think Nielsen‚Äôs still right in saying that 90% of Flash is bad, as 90% of flash is used for banner ads (I‚Äôm guessing, of course). This is the same kind of useless fluff as having a splash screen on your site, so fits into the same category.<br />
Flash can be an excellent tool for doing anything that <em>needs</em> animation, or other effects that you can get using Flash, such as a widget that demonstrates some principle or other. It‚Äôs just that, though. It‚Äôs only worth using if there‚Äôs a real need for it and then it‚Äôs the right thing to use. It‚Äôs not so good when people are using it to try and get a ‚Äòlook‚Äô, and especially not great when a whole site‚Äôs made from the stuff. It‚Äôs like good, concise writing - if you can remove something without removing the meaning, then you probably should.<br />
I imagine the use of flash where it is not needed comes about as there are people out there that are happier working with it than using html, xhtml, css, etc., as those things are time consuming to get into and technical.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T10:00:58Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32629</id>
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    <title>Comment from Mind Booster Noori on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Mind Booster Noori</name>
        <uri>http://mindboosternoori.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://mindboosternoori.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>I'm sorry, I like R/WW and I'm an Web 2.0 enthusiast, but I completely agree with Nielsen and disagree with you on this one. See my thoughts on the issue <a href="http://mindboosternoori.blogspot.com/2007/05/is-web-20-with-usability-or-not.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T11:21:59Z</published>
  </entry>

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    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32630</id>
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    <title>Comment from Alan on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Alan</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>Glad this was raised by R/WW. My problem with the BBC's report is it's likely to be read by many who are unable to discern the balance - from this output they stand a fair chance of seeing a brown tinge on anything tagged Web 2.0 and that is simply wrong. Folks more into this space will know Web 2.0 is simply *not* the culprit in cases of bad site design. It's the designer or it's the person getting the site published treading on the designer.</p>

<p>A good thing to point out 'keep aware of good practices and follow them always' but pointed out in such a way that misrepresents, in this case Web 2.0, and that is a sad thing for the lovely BBC to have been party to in this case. Thanks R/WW for the balance, thanks Mr Nielsen for your favour of clarity and thanks to the BBC for being a great reporter--most of the time.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T12:46:55Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32631</id>
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    <title>Comment from Diego on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Diego</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>I think IMHO<br />
1. Nielsen neglects emotional design.<br />
2. He has been wrong sometimes, I remember he said video blogs were going to be a failure. Mmm...</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T14:05:39Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:72.47.210.69,2007://1.3791-comment:32632</id>
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    <title>Comment from Richard MacManus on 2007-05-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>Richard MacManus</name>
        <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.readwriteweb.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Jack, would love to see that writeup of Jakob Nielsen's homepage (you can post it on R/WW if you like!) :-)</p>

<p>Mind Booster, good thoughts - but I agree with your commenters that you were mainly talking about a lack of accessibility in some web 20 sites. It is a part of usability, but not what Nielsen was referring to in the BBC piece.</p>

<p>On Flash -- Ben you explained it very well, thanks.</p>

<p>I didn't have many supporters on this post (perhaps it came across as too sensationalistic -- noted on that), but Alan you pretty much summed up my thoughts. It was the over-generalization of web20 design by Jakob that ticked me off.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-05-18T19:36:33Z</published>
  </entry>

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