<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" 
      xmlns:thr="http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0">
  <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php" />
  <link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/atom.xml" />
  <id>tag:,2008:/1/tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-</id>
  <updated>2008-05-09T18:03:16Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Google App Engine: History&apos;s Next Step or Monopolistic Boondoggle?</title>
  
  <generator uri="http://www.sixapart.com/movabletype/">Movable Type 4.1</generator>
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058</id>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php" />
    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=6058" title="Google App Engine: History's Next Step or Monopolistic Boondoggle?" />
    <published>2008-04-08T17:21:44Z</published>
    <updated>2008-04-08T20:48:32Z</updated>
    <title>Google App Engine: History&apos;s Next Step or Monopolistic Boondoggle?</title>
    <summary>Google App Engine: Our Analysis</summary>
    <author>
      <name>Marshall Kirkpatrick</name>
      <uri>http://www.readwriteweb.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Analysis" />
    
    <category term="Features" />
    
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.readwriteweb.com/">
      <![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www.readwriteweb.com/images/appengine_lowres.jpg">Google's new <a href="http://code.google.com/appengine/">App Engine</a> will let application developers outsource hosting and data storage for their applications by using key elements of Google's infrastructure.  </p>

<p>As many people have noticed, the announcement just screams out for analysis in light of <a href="http://roughtype.com">Nick Carr</a>'s new book <em>The Big Switch</em>.  </p>]]>
      <![CDATA[<p>Carr outlines the history of electric power generation moving from an in-house operation of every business to its current position as a commodity produced by giant specialized power producers and sold at a metered rate.  He argues that computing is undergoing an analogous process and that just as commoditized electricity changed the world, so too will commodified computing.  The same industrial history has had to struggle with monopoly power, though, and that's something that has to be considered when looking at announcements like Google's App Engine.  </p>

<p><object width="375" height="300" hspace="5px" vspace="5px" align="right"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ztr-HhWX1c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ztr-HhWX1c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="300" align="right" hspace="5px" vspace="5px"></embed></object>Richard MacManus provided <a href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_cloud_control.php">an overview of the announcement last night</a> and John Musser at Programmable Web provides <a href="http://blog.programmableweb.com/2008/04/08/google-app-engine-your-apps-in-the-cloud/">a good overview of the technical details</a>.  There's an official Google video intro on the right.  Most interested developers have already jumped in and looked at as much as they are able to access, though - so now it's time to talk context and consequences.</p>

<h2>Scalability</h2>

<p>Services like App Engine may very well represent history's next logical layer of abstraction, taking several onerous obstacles off of the to-do list of application developers.  That means developers can focus on other things and leverage greater resources than they may have had access to otherwise.  Google-sized economies of scale can beat just about anyone on price and in theory it bodes well for uptime.  The all-to-frequent downtime experienced by customers of Amazon Web Services begs the question of Service Level Agreements for the Google App Engine - and there doesn't appear to to be any right now.  Let's presume that all of that is going to get worked out in time, though.  As Carr points out in <em>The Big Switch</em>, the early days of commodified electricity were also filled with worry about safety and reliability.  There was an economic imperative to solve those problems, and except for externalities like damage to river ecosystems, asthma from coal plants and nuclear toxification of Native American land, the problems of safety and reliability have been solved in for electricity.  Those aren't off-topic matters, either, see <a href="http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2008/02/googles_footpri.php">Carr's own coverage of Google's new giant server farm here in Oregon</a>, where they want cheap electricity from our rivers to power the apps in App Engine.</p>

<p>Carr says in his book that progress towards technological advancement is more an economic imperative than it is a psychosis or a choice.   See the above externalities and ask yourself about psychosis, but point taken - things like commodified computing make so much economic sense that they are in all likelihood inescapable.</p>

<h2>Data Portability</h2>

<p>It's up to you to decide to use Google Accounts as user authentication in your App Engine app, or to write your own authentication code.  Developers tell me that porting these apps out of App Engine should require as little as rewriting some data storage code and perhaps a few webservices - but I'm not hearing people complain about the system being to confining.  That's great.</p>

<p>It's very, very important that there be no barriers to leaving App Engine and that the service retains customers based on price and superior service.  Anything else, any lock-in, will drive a stake through the heart of innovation.  </p>

<p>I expected to hear about OpenSocial support for App Engine, but haven't yet.  Hopefully standards discussions have been underway for some time, but it appears that other than being written in a single coding language - Apps will be pretty free to come and go.</p>

<h2>It's not ala Carte</h2>

<p>Amazon Web Services lets developers pick and choose between a handful of different services, including data storage and processing.  Many startups, for example, just use AWS storage and do processing on their own servers. Google App Engine is an all-or-nothing offering and that's a little bit creepy.  There may have been factory owners in the early days of commodified electricity who wanted to keep some parts of that world in-house too, so perhaps Google's all-in-one offering will seem reasonable in the future.</p>

<h2>Advertising</h2>

<p>The fact that Google is now offering to power and host web apps, many of which are only ever monetized by AdSense, is...convenient, for Google.  Will other ad networks be allowed on Google App Engine servers?  That Google is ultimately in the business of advertising against content and now will sell you a printing press may be nothing more than fair, but it certainly raised concerns about monopolistic conglomerates.  </p>

<p>Google's dominance of online advertising is so severe, and the umbrella for innovators that such dominance affords is so large, that it can't help but raise concerns about a single corporate allegiance running between so many development teams in leadership positions in the web 2.0 economy.  Now the App Engine feels a little like the minor-leauges, or a place for innovative sharecroppers, all brought together by the Google Dollar and the resources it can provide.</p>

<h2>Competing Services</h2>

<p>Competition is good.  Amazon Web Services already faced some competition from services like <a href="http://longjump.com">Longjump</a> (<a href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/longjump_database_in_the_cloud.php">our coverage</a>), <a href="http://www.nirvanix.com/">Nirvanix</a> and other cloud computing services (see <a href="http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=8409">Larry Dignan's</a> discussion yesterday).  Adding Google to the mix could turn up the volume on competition for customer loyalty.</p>

<p>While Google App Engine is only being previewed right now, there's already some people asking wether comparing it to Amazon Web Services is a matter of apples and oranges.  </p>

<p>Bret Taylor, the former Google App Engine Project Manager and now founder of red-hot startup <a href="http://friendfeed.com">FriendFeed</a>, couches his questions in some very nice words about the project.</p>

<blockquote>I am impressed. The App Engine team has done a fantastic job, and I think they have already changed the way I do hobby projects.

<p>The next logical question is: would I run a real business on infrastructure that is so different than everyone else's? If I change my mind about App Engine, what are my options? I am hoping a number of open source projects spring up as alternatives to lower the switching costs over the next year. I will be very interested to see how many startups take the leap and run on App Engine entirely in the meantime. </blockquote></p>

<p>Taylor posted about his experience testing out App Engine on <a href="http://bret.appspot.com/entry/experimenting-google-app-engine">a lightweight blog</a> that he wrote on the platform itself.</p>

<p>Taylor isn't alone in saying that so far, Google App Engine is a relatively simplistic offering.  There's a substantial number of people feeling unsure about Python being the only language being supported at launch, as well, though Google says that other languages will be supported in the future.</p>

<p>The point is, Google App Engine may be neither competitive nor monopolistic - it might just be trivial as Google Pages or Google Base.</p>

<p>So far it seems pretty simple and useful, though.  We'll have to take a deep breath, hope that Amazon and others step up their offerings a notch or two in response, and see what the future brings.<br />
</p>]]>
    </content>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51279</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51279" />
    <title>Comment from diystartupnews.com on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>diystartupnews.com</name>
        <uri>http://diystartupnews.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://diystartupnews.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>I see it as a developer platform more than startup platform. With App Engine you don't need a linux guru or network guy to setup your ec2/s3 lamp stack. You don't need to worry about securing your server its just write and deploy. </p>

<p>my main concerns are:-</p>

<p>how do you run batch jobs? You have no server access so how to you manage batch jobs for reporting</p>

<p>what if the dataset you want to play with has more than a 1000 objects</p>

<p>how long is the timeout for a script?</p>

<p>how long will it be in beta?</p>

<p>when will it be stable for commerical apps?</p>

<p>how much will it cost?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T18:11:17Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51282</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51282" />
    <title>Comment from Kevin Marks on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Kevin Marks</name>
        <uri>http://epeus.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://epeus.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Marshall, it's not 'all or nothing' at all - you can write a web service on AppEngine that accepts all HTML verbs and outputs anything you want. You can use the AppEngine datastore, or you can call out to  other web services, again with all the HTML verbs, using the urlfetch function. Integration happens using web standards. I fully expect to see apps with their core data in the AppEngine datastore, and large binary files kept in Amazon S3.<br />
The web is the platform, and AppEngine is part of the web.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T18:27:34Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51283</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51283" />
    <title>Comment from Harbar Gau on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Harbar Gau</name>
        <uri>http://www.macrophotos.net/</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.macrophotos.net/">
        <![CDATA[<p>Just more convenience isn't it? I think they become too evasive of a technology provider to deal with. They are now in direct competition with many of the small startups they help build. </p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T18:30:18Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51286</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51286" />
    <title>Comment from Thomas on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Thomas</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>Hey Marshall,</p>

<p>Interesting take.  The potential conflict of interest is very problematic.  Amazon makes a big deal about insisting that they will not compete with their AWS customers (which has *thus far* been largely true).</p>

<p>Also, looks like there might be a problem with the trackback link...  <a href="http://elephantdrive.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/will-google-app-engine-change-things/" rel="nofollow">http://elephantdrive.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/will-google-app-engine-change-things/</a></p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T18:45:11Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51289</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51289" />
    <title>Comment from Deepak on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Deepak</name>
        <uri>http://mndoci.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://mndoci.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Interesting analysis.  For the most part, I do look at AppEngine as the Blogspot of web app development. For people who want to do more heavy lifting/computing etc, they will have to either integrate with Amazon at some level (assuming that's possible as Kevin says) or you will have to go the virtual machine way with loosely coupled services.</p>

<p>Still too early to say where this will go.  We're probably going to get a lot of bad open social apps :)</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T18:51:22Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51302</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51302" />
    <title>Comment from Todd on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Todd</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>Here is Sara Hatter, of 37Signals, response to the first App Engine application, called "HuddleChat":</p>

<p><a href="http://twitter.com/sh/statuses/785076522" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/sh/statuses/785076522</a></p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T19:46:47Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51305</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51305" />
    <title>Comment from Peter Melnikov on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Peter Melnikov</name>
        <uri>http://www.moveyourweb.net/blog</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.moveyourweb.net/blog">
        <![CDATA[<p>Very nice move by Google! The rush started not only in USA but caught the attention worldwide. Here at MoveYourWeb (based in Eastern Europe - offshore outsourcing destination) we are working on several demo applications already and should ship in 1-3 days.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-08T19:57:44Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51354</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51354" />
    <title>Comment from Q dub on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>Q dub</name>
        <uri>http://qwang.net</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://qwang.net">
        <![CDATA[<p>Another huge concern is:</p>

<p>What if Google does not remain the lead innovator in the future (going the way of MS) and *outside technologies such as languages, databases, architectures evolve faster than GAE*?  How will people migrate?</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-09T01:57:25Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51358</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51358" />
    <title>Comment from theinternetisgoingtobeHUGE on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>theinternetisgoingtobeHUGE</name>
        <uri></uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[<p>Google's Brilliant.  What MS is to clients, Google'll be to "the cloud".  (the merits of that are definitely debatable, but...) Its great for so many reasons. A few that come to mind:</p>

<p>1) the innovation this will spark as developers are able to focus on code and not infrastructure.<br />
2) the mindshare they'll capture as developers focus on python and Google's SDK instead of C#, Linq, XAML, or whatever else MS comes out with (Dude, it's all about GqlQueries) <br />
3) the fact that while MS (and FB for that matter) continually focus on playing catch-up on advertising, Google's aim is to change the software game entirely.  Plus, the longer MS f's around with Y! the further head start they have laying the foundation for the future of all development on the web.  So Pimp!!<br />
4)This just leapfrogs MS's half-in-the-client, half-in-the-cloud architecture. While MS tries to bleed the client model as long as they can, if GoogleAppEngine succeeds, it'll definitely be a game changer.<br />
5) and when its time to monetize, and your webapp is entirely dependent on Google's infrastructure, it'll be easy as flipping a switch to them to charge for all this goodness.</p>

<p>We all just got served. (in the literal and figurative senses)</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-09T02:22:09Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51377</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51377" />
    <title>Comment from william on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>william</name>
        <uri>http://www.adelph.us</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.adelph.us">
        <![CDATA[<p>This seems so very much like  dark days of the Microsoft OS monopoly. Who can forget the memories of; stifled competition, and price fixing. In this case Google does the arm twisting AND knuckle cracking by dropping  the pricing of a service to free. Goolge is using the advantage of massive scale built on the backs of consumers and media to choke the life out of them and any competitor.</p>

<p>Do we now face  a world where all apps are run on the google platform and coded to their specifications. Have we forgotten what happened to Borland, Netscape, and Novel.</p>

<p>Make no bones about it; Google is trying to be the next OS at any cost. If they go on this path unchallenged we will see the snuffing out of a vibrant industry that was once the home of rebels that believed in the possibilities and the freedom of choice.</p>

<p><br />
It is also clear that Google is the biggest danger to Open Source software that we have ever seen.<br />
Where is the cloud/OS for those of us that want a choice and don't think its a good idea for one company to own the very life of the internet.</p>

<p>We at adelph.us will be launching an alternative</p>

<p>"You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe."</p>

<p>"You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more."</p>

<p>from the Matrix written by Andy Wachowski & Larry Wachowski</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-09T04:25:54Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51397</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51397" />
    <title>Comment from 113.com on 2008-04-08</title>
    <author>
        <name>113.com</name>
        <uri>http://113.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://113.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>Make it efficient for China users too...</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-09T06:31:40Z</published>
  </entry>

  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058-comment:51829</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.readwriteweb.com,2008://1.6058" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_app_engine_history_or_monopoly.php#c51829" />
    <title>Comment from Murray Oles on 2008-04-13</title>
    <author>
        <name>Murray Oles</name>
        <uri>http://www.chalexcorp.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.chalexcorp.com">
        <![CDATA[<p>As the president of a SaaS startup, bpdam.com, I am challenged to pick a winner between Google and Amazon when so many other platforms are emerging such as OpenWebTop for Open Lazlo.  FLEX from  Adobe, the APEX code base and the AppXchange from SalesForce.com.  When should we expect eBay to launch a framework for SaaS commerce.  Right now I am most comfortable with loose coupling.  </p>

<p>Our biggest challenge seems to be the issues with corporate firewalls and the differences between IE, Firefox and Safari in how they handle Javascript and FLASH.  These have to get sorted out sooner than later if commercial SaaS is really going to succeed.</p>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-04-13T13:12:51Z</published>
  </entry>

</feed>