Mathew
http://www.blist.com

Online database apps are great and so are social apps and widget apps like popfly but what Iceberg is about is brining Real power to businesses and individuals large and small.

It is build around BPM, workflow and a bunch of enterprise features so you can finally make a tool that you can actually run your business with, instead of having even more 'apps' or widgets that do a small piece of the puzzle.

I would love to hear from the audience out there about what you would like from Iceberg and what you want to build with it!

Wayne Byrne
http://www.geticeberg.com

If only there's something called logic templates as there are tons of web templates. =D

Always great to have something new to break the steely ice though!

But software like this could make it easier for semi-professionals and corporate IT-professionals to select to build something on their own, using the Iceberg tools, instead of purchasing something off the shelf.

Even something simple like the old Teacher/Pupil/Course/Room relationship is hard enough for most people to model and not get wrong somewhere along the way.

And Twitter is almost a prime case of using a RAD framework to knock up a great idea, using almost wholly the wrong architecture to do it.

Yes our goal is to make it as simple a process as possible. To really make building an application like having a conversation with a very talented and knowledgeable consultant, who asks all the right questions and has the experience to create what you need.

Pity there's no mac version.

Yes Iceberg is .net so mac install is currently not an option but we have a hosted service you can access from a web browser on any platform.

Thanks,
Sridhar Vembu

This is a superb article about a very innovative yet difficult to describe platform. I know because I wrote one about it here last year. You have done a superb job and I know people will benefit from your efforts...readers and users alike.

Thanks Always,

Phil

Sridhar, I don't want to be rude, but ZOHO pails by comparison. I once reviewed your service on a partner site and I remember being very favorable, particularly when comparing ZOHO Writer with Google Docs. But Iceberg... is another story! Our company is already using Iceberg - time management and invoicing - and I can tell you: nothing works faster, nothing is easier. I've tested other CRM software in the past (including ZOHO) and none offers the flexibility and endless apps building possibilities of Iceberg.

If it's a per user licensing model how does Iceberg support a public facing application where, if I'm even moderately successful, thousands will use my app? I assume that a user is someone creating an application vs those people who use the application but the site is ambiguous on this.

Also I'd encourage them to have a free hosted trial - right now I need to either download and install (which requires Windows and some of us don't use that) or pay to check out their software. Even a single user, N day limitation would be nice.

As someone who programs for a living, I can tell you that the 'average' user (and many 'above average' users) can't even tell you what they want ('requirements'), in plain english, without a lot of hand-holding and prodding to get them to think about 'fringe' cases and exceptions and the many gory details that go into any significant piece of software.

So, call me skeptical. On the other hand, maybe I have a vested interest in the failure of projects like this, since I rather enjoy programming for a living. ;)

I guess it comes down to convenience. Those who arent programmers will use iceberg and those of us who are, wont use it. While there are some great tools out there with nice features, there is always something that that they fall short on - something custom that is needed and not included.

Is it kind of like Yahoo! Pipes? That to me is the current standard in non-programmer programming. It isn't "for dummies" but it's pretty good if you take the time to go through the developer documentation.

On some level, I question if these "everyone can program" utilities are doomed to fail. Programming in a very real sense is hard. It doesn't always have to be but it's naive I think to say "aha we've solved programming. now grandma can do it." Nonsense. Maybe for some programming tasks, yes, but I've yet to see a killer app that makes me forget the stuff I can do in perl, ruby, or lisp.

1. Users (not technically aware or early adopters) expect you to come with an answer to their business needs and not with a big toolbox;

2. One of the biggest challenges when creating applications is not about building it but listening to the customers and translates their functional needs into automated processes and web screens; (which is not addressed with web app builders)

3. Web applications builders are putting high limitation to the developers’ freedom.

1)
Iceberg IS a web based app, we have a hosted version at 10$ per user per month on our homepage. The Iceberg install app on the site is an exe that lets people (on windows) install it on their own machine/server and get up to 7 users for free.

2)Going forward we will be rolling out a server based licensing model for more mainstream applications. Anyone interested in building 'twittery' apps can email me at wayne@geticeberg.com and we can see about working together.

3)Yes a lot of what great programmers do is consult with clients and help them figure out what they want, we're trying to help them do that more easily and then not have to spend months developing what they planned for the client. You just plan it in Iceberg and its done.

4) Iceberg is highly for programmers, you can add new functions, web controls, pages and completely integrate with web services in and out.

5)We will be releasing some kind of online trial in the near future along with some other very exciting things.

If anyone has any more questions or comments I would love to hear them. Thanks for taking the time to help us make the world better.

Wayne
wayne@geticeberg.com

But if you are a business consultant or an IT manager, then you will already have plenty of experience translating human ideas into computer ones. The challenge is that its usually months or years after that until you can actually roll out your product. Iceberg will considerably shorten that for you.

Plus I personally have seen many many 'normal' people who have never programmed (even with other wysiwyg or rad tools) grasp the basics in a very short time.

The ultimate goal behind Iceberg is to make interacting with computers at least as straightforward as interacting with humans, in that you describe what you want to do, and not necessarily how it is to be done.

Now as many have quite rightly pointed out, interacting with humans isn't always straightforward, but its a lot easier than trying to instruct a computer.

ohyeah, and on another sidenote, One form per table != User friendly data driven application

In information theory you call the "iceberg" you're driving into minimum complexity, and it just isn't packable in a form that retains both it's best features and is simple to use.

1)
You are absolutely right CRUD + DB isn't programming.

Thats why Iceberg has a powerful process engine that drives the logic and process needs of the application.

2)
Again, one form per table isn't user friendly, so Iceberg allows infinite forms and views per object (or table) and these forms can be controlled on a process step or state basis. It is vital that a closed bug show different UI to an open one.

We genuinely have spent a very long time working and working on Iceberg until it could make applications businesses need without code and I'm very glad to see that our work as paid off by your comments.

If you would like some more detail you can reach me at wayne@geticeberg.com

Anyway, interesting product to keep an eye on; just don't be so naive as to think its "declaring war on programming".

Well the discussion is interesting, though resplendent to an extent with "nay sayers". I am not usually prone to rave about other author's exhibitions - but honestly Sarah did a great job of explaining the unexplainable. I know personally of 10 bloggers who loved the innovation, but were shy about the work involved to express it.

As for Iceberg itself, I have tested over 350 startups in the last two years and Wayne's work is in the top 10 of truly innovative platforms. True, it cannot change your bath water and it wont replace Microsoft or even Ruby, but for a business type..nothing could be easier, faster and more powerful at a fraction of the cost (and I was the first to test Coghead). He has done an exquisite job of creating something new and powerful without 5 million in Venture Capital I might add.

I know for a relative certainty that any comment at this point beyond the potential is for all intents and purposes biased because of the time involved to test Iceberg. It is not exactly "drop dead simple" in that it does take some getting used to. For business people who are familiar with form fill aspects and etc., it will be easy.

So, that being said - you have to create something with it to evaluate it. I am fairly sure that Sarah either did so or went through some extensive note taking and and demos in order to do this article. I know because I was the first tester a year ago right here and it took me a while to express even a third of what Sarah has done.

I have worked with Wayne off and on since he launched the original product and I can only express how glad I am for him that a notable expert finally braved what we might call "the tough post" in order to give people something worthy. ReadWrite has always been about the in depth aspect of Web 2.0 and the readers here tend to be more savvy than at some other blogs.

We all have to be vested in innovation and effort. The reason Iceberg has so much potential is because of the people behind it, I firmly believe in this principal. Just like RWW is about Richard and the people on the team, so too are many of these innovations. We owe it to one another to give time and due diligence in evaluating these things. Iceberg is 10 times more powerful than Coghead or similar applications. Sure it needs more refinement, but what doesn't? I just developers by their ability to adapt and to accept suggestion. Wayne is by far the best and most diligent in this regard.

Just some thoughts....in all honesty...about development in general and particularly excellence from people. We owe time for time to the things each of us create for one another.

Always,

Phil

As if programmers weren't unappreciated enough as it is, now we get to have the general public running around pretending they know what the hell is going on and saying "Oh, you have a degree in computer science? Well that was a waste of time! Look at this version of solitaire I made in five minutes with Iceberg for Desktop!" Then you tell them exactly how bloated it is, and they give you a blank, glazed-over stare and accuse you of being jealous.

Wow, thanks, Iceberg, for preparing the world for a billion mini-Microsofts running around!

Have we learned nothing from the horror that is script kiddies? God!

Iceberg isn't a codegen application its a platform built on .net so as the platform gets more develops all of the applications built on it automatically have less of the issues you mention without the writers having to make changes.

Some programmers have always complained about new platforms that add a layer of abstraction between the code and the chip right back to the first compilers, but history proves that it has always resulted in a better experience for the user.

At the end of the day all that matters is, as a programmer do you have to work for a week or 5 months to give your client more (not less) than they asked for?

"At the end of the day all that matters is, as a programmer do you have to work for a week or 5 months to give your client more (not less) than they asked for?"

Don't you think it really depends the kind of applications you are developing ?

Using a framework and realizing a little bit later that it was finally not optimized for your business and having to redo everything... the week of work can become months then and a reputation nightmare. (Look at Twitter for example who should have maybe considered something like Erlang instead of following the trendy Rails).

So I would say your assumption is true as long as the developer is in a business close to the one you aimed your framework at. But defining for which business a developer framework is aimed at is nothing but easy since initially, the purpose is to be universal, I guess.

Anyway; question; what is the difference between this and 'a' Coghead or Longjump or DabbleDB (there are a lot more but these I actually like)? Seems like exactly the same thing, only more primitive (first version?). And those are a lot cheaper (I read that beyond 5 users the pricing is $200/user=> that is too high, especially considering your competition).

I think the reason people are being positive about Iceberg because we've genuinely spent years of our lives working hard to create something that will make the world a better place.

The difference between Iceberg and the apps you mention (which are excellent products for what they do) is that Iceberg is for making workflow based applications that you can run a business on.

As for pricing Iceberg is currently priced at less on the hosted model than coghead or longjump at only 10$ per month per user. The 200$ per user is a once off price for companies hosting Iceberg locally.

If you would like to find out a little more about Iceberg i'd love to have a chat or you can find me on twitter :) http://twitter.com/getIceberg

The app page has a short description, a flash demo, and a download link, and these 4 comments (slightly abbreviated):

1. I'd like to download the app.
2. Please send me a copy.
3. Please send me a copy. (same guy)
4. Nice website.

To summarize, out of 3 commenters...

1. 2 are asking for a copy, even though the download link is right there.
2. 1 doesn't know how to submit a comment just once.
3. 1 is either twelve ("nice website" ?!) or hadn't bothered to read an extremely short description to understand that it's not a website but a downloadable app.

Do I need to say more? My job as a programmer is safe.

The key to any project is outside the framework chosen to implement it, so why worry so much? Iceberg can't help there. And how scary is a head of lettuce really?

The idea that an average Joe is going to build apps with this is pure and utter hooey; it's way over their heads- sorry Wayne, but I'd love to see the results of your focus groups.

There is a great opportunity for people like me, that know the business rules for an app, know they could build it, but the ROI, even in ROR just isn't worth it- I can make a lot more money doing other things.

Now, if it works as advertised and I can crank out my own Web 2.0 app and start making some mailbox money, that's a different equation entirely.

I would rather the iceberg was written at least on mono and with gpl, imho there are lots of lots of open source *functions* which might give more power on reaching any area of software. Hey I don't have an ms~ to dig in:( Talking about the infrastructure, are there only two output legs for the controller or can it be augmented? one more question, is there a dsl to create new function even with an java api or R?

Thank you for the interesting comment. I can see your point that you believe anyone seeking to use a tool like iceberg isnt capable of building a powerful application but in my experience these are exactly the people who know what they want. Historically it has always been those with the focus on the why and the what, rather than the how have provided the most value to the world.

Also, the people who posted those comments put them up when the project management app was in beta to request access, so they didn't just ignore/not see the link as you may have guessed :)

I'm always really happy when someone notices just how much work went into Iceberg and most importantly how much work Iceberg really does save for doing the more important things.