Comments for When The Browser Doesn't Cut it: Basecamp's Lack of Mobility

When The Browser Doesn't Cut it: Basecamp's Lack of Mobility

2008-11-14T23:20:22Z

We at ReadWriteWeb are huge Basecamp fans. It raises the productivity of small, physically dispersed teams (like ours) to a level that enables new virtual companies to be be viable. Basecamp changes the traditional answer to the question: "can we operate virtually from around the world, or do we all need to live in the same place?" ReadWriteWeb, for example, lives on Basecamp; it is our office.

But there is one problem. Basecamp is browser native. I want mobile native. And ReadWriteWeb's VP of Content Dev Marshall Kirkpatrick tweeted today that he wants a Basecamp AIR app. Either way, it's clear that browser-only doesn't cut it anymore for Basecamp.

]]> Why Lack of Mobile Version is Such a Pain

Let's focus on the mobile issue in this post. Like many people, I don't live at my desk. I am up and about, meeting people. I like it that way. So I rely on my Blackberry to stay in touch. But here is the problem. I get an email notification of a post within Basecamp. I can read it fine, no problem. But when I want to reply, I have to use the Blackberry browser to log into Basecamp. That is kludgy to say the least. So I open an email thread, annoying everybody else on the team.

Sure I could switch to an iPhone with a better browser. But that still relies on good connectivity all the time and I don't want to be forced to make that switch. I want something like Twitterberry, a native Blackberry interface to Basecamp.

But when you look at the world through mobile eyes, you see that this is not an incremental change. It is as fundamental as moving from Client Server to browser-native. Browsers on small mobile screens are talking heads on early TV.

This Is a Hard Problem to Solve

Some problems are totally easy to define, such as a cure for cancer, longer lasting batteries or really cheap solar energy - but much, much, much harder to implement. So I am going to do the easy bit - define the problem - and hope that somebody comes up with the solution.

The needs are in 3 "buckets":

1. Mobile Native user interface
2. User centric, not project centric
3. Collaborative list building

Start With Mobile

My short-hand description is "like Basecamp but mobile native". That is easy to say, but tough to implement for 4 reasons:

1. Mobile native user interface. Ideally 90% of my actions are on a mobile device with a tiny screen and keyboard. I will do the more complex configuration and housekeeping type work on a browser in the 10% of my time when I am working on a fully fledged laptop/desktop. Most developers spend 90% of their time creating on a laptop/desktop and only 10% communicating in the "real world". For most of us, that ratio is different.

2. Offline syncing. Much of the time my mobile device is "off air". Those are opportunities to catch up on To Do Lists, Objectives, Milestones and the other planning type activities. You can do these sitting on an airplane, train or waiting in line at Starbucks. Syncing your personal planning to your group communication tool (Basecamp or whatever) is an annoying extra step that is a time sink.

3. Any mobile device. I use a Blackberry. I like it, but I may get seduced by the iPhone or may have something totally different in the future. More to the point, I cannot possibly predict what devices my collaborators will have and the vast majority of mobile devices are neither Blackberry nor iPhone. Communication has to work at the lowest common denominator but the user interface has to be native. As a Blackberry user, I don't care a hoot about the compromises the developer faces having to design for Blackberry, iPhone, Nokia, etc. The same is true for people with other devices, iPhone users being the most vehement about native user interfaces.

The SMS Lowest Common Denominator?

SMS without the interrupt or cost issues. "Lowest common denominator for communication" makes one think of SMS. But SMS has major costs - both time and money. Services that generate lots of email messages are bad enough, but lots of SMS messages are way worse.

Individual Centric, Not Project Centric

This may be even hard to solve than mobile native, but the issues are linked.

Like many people I multi-task across multiple projects, working with different teams in different companies. This is an increasingly common experience for many people, even if multiple projects/teams within one company is still more common. "Dipping in and out of" multiple Basecamp projects is a pain. My To Do List may be tagged by Project, but I want only one To Do List, that syncs with individual Projects To Do Lists.

Collaborative List Building

Many people use Excel for building lists - marketing lists, to do lists, feature lists and so on. It may be a hammer to crack a nut, not what it was designed for, but people do this. As list building requires collaboration we start using "web office" type spreadsheets such as Google Apps or Zoho. This is classic "hammer to crack a nut". Excel is still better than any web office competitor for heavy duty spreadsheet work, such as building a financial model for a venture, but relatively weak on collaboration. List building needs very simple features but needs to be very collaboration intensive. A slightly more sophisticated version of Tasks on a Blackberry that is collaborative might be close.

The Solution: a User Interface Maestro!

This may come as an extension to Basecamp or a totally different service that can use services such as Basecamp. Or even an alternative to Basecamp, much as I love them.

These problems cannot be solved at the technical level only. I am sure the architecture issues are important, but this is primarily a user interface challenge. This requires inspiration, a real user interface maestro.

Using Twitterberry shows some of the issues. It is a lot better than using SMS and the browser directly, but it is still sorely lacking (as 4 days of TweetPorting from Web 2.0 Expo made very clear). And Twittering is one simple task/feature. Doing this for the richness of tasks in Basecamp is an order of magnitude harder.

A short term fix for me could be a native Blackberry interface to Basecamp. If 37 Signals offered this I would be happier and if they also did iPhone and Symbian for Nokia and others they could crack the "mobile native" issue. but I suspect it would not solve my "individual centric, not project centric" issue.

Also Basecamp was "born on" the browser. I suspect that something "born on" the mobile phone could be the next generation.

Does this need resonate with you and have you seen anything like this in the wild? Or in Beta? Finally, is Basecamp really the best project management solution now in this increasingly mobile-based work world? We'd love to hear your suggestions for alternatives.

Comment from Troy Malone on 2008-11-14

2008-11-14T23:54:02Z

Wow! You raise some great questions here. We grapple with these questions every day as we build out our application. You are right that the mobile dimension is changing things and has to be addressed. Here's what we are doing about it:

1. We just completed an integration with Evernote. It was covered here by Marshall: http://tinyurl.com/68qm87 This integration accomplished two things for us. It gave us the ability to allow our users to take notes and capture information throughout their day that may pertain to their projects. It also allowed us to extend to mobile devices. Imagine taking a voice note and then delegating that out in your group collaboration system when you are back in front of the browser. Cool stuff...done.

2. You mention a great point about collaborative list building. Basecamp has writeboards, but we wanted something more robust and a bit more broad. We are at work right now on our integration with Google Docs. Within Pelotonics, you will be able to create new documents, spreadsheets, presentations and web forms. All of these elements will be organized and the permissions will be managed in Pelotonics. Very cool stuff...in progress.

3. This was not mentioned, but I think it is important. We are also finishing up an Outlook plug-in that will sync calendars, allow you to create messages for Pelotonics projects directly from your mail interface, add contacts to Pelotonics from Outlook, etc. We believe that people should work as much as they can in their preferred applications and that Pelotonics becomes a layer of collaboration that integrates and organizes those disparate methods.

4. We really want to integrate Remember the Milk into Pelotonics as well because of their iPhone app and other extensible options. They are a bit rusty on the business end, but hopefully they will see the light that integrating with applications like Pelotonics only increases their importance AND help them produce upgraded and paying customers! If not RTM, it will be Toodledo for the same reasons.

The bottom line is that we want people to work as they normally do, but have a layer of collaboration (Pelotonics) that helps them make sense of all their projects.

I look forward to all your comments.

Troy Malone
Pelotonics

Comment from Bruce on 2008-11-14

2008-11-15T00:38:50Z

I would suggest that you check out http://www.vitalist.com

I think it answers some of your main concerns with basecamp.

Comment from Jason on 2008-11-14

2008-11-15T00:55:06Z

Thanks for that thoughtful analysis Bruce. I now understand the the mobility issues faced by web 2.0 offerings all the better.

Comment from cbseven on 2008-11-14

2008-11-15T01:41:16Z

Right on brother!

1. Mobile interface
2. User centric
3. Collaborative list building

You've hit the nail on the head.

Comment from VinodLive on 2008-11-14

2008-11-15T04:18:52Z

There is an app available in AppStore now - for BaseCamp. Please search for 'basecamp'

Comment from Andrew Watson on 2008-11-14

2008-11-15T04:22:46Z

I have run into these same issues with Basecamp, Highrise, dotProject, Remedy etc....

Even for my own apps, I struggle with the rich UI components that we add for full browser users that just plain don't work on the blackberry. I like the idea of developing custom thick clients for some things. The Facebook application works ok. I wish it was more full featured but it's not too bad.

Some of the problem is the network / software limitations the cellular networks place on you. It's hard to implement a true "push" service without their help. Also, with the exception of the Blackberry there aren't many platforms where users can install software at will.

Comment from Nader on 2008-11-15

2008-11-15T12:11:00Z

What we needed the most as an online media agency was an easier way to submit (multiple) time entries to Basecamp, no matter if we'd be on- or offline. So we created compuccino time track, an AIR app enabling exactly that.

http://compuccino.com/tools/timetrack/

Comment from ITrush on 2008-11-15

2008-11-15T12:12:19Z

Another great post here RWW.. thanks for sharing and more power.

Comment from Elia Freedman on 2008-11-15

2008-11-15T14:17:49Z

What you say is absolutely correct and from a user's perspective it is all very true. The mobile development issue is one of implementation.

The beauty of the web is that you get to develop one set of code that generally works on all the desktop/laptop browsers available. Okay, there are tweaks here or there, but for the most part, it just works.

The mobile world has no such thing. To develop for a mobile platform, you have to become an expert in its underlying development language and then in its specific way of doing things (API). So Apple iPhone requires knowledge of C and then you have to learn their custom version of C, called Objective-C, and then you have to learn their user interface and system APIs. And then you have to do this for the next platform. The development costs to support more than one platform are through the roof, in dev time, depth of knowledge and abilities.

We have been developing mobile software for 11 years and constantly banging our head's against the wall regarding the hottest new devices and operating systems. If you are interested in hearing more, a couple of posts from my own blog:

On multiple OS's (from Oct 2007):
http://mobilesuccess.infinitysw.com/2007/10/21/ugh-3-million-platforms-with-100-users-each/

On mobile development decisions (from Nov 2008):
http://mobilesuccess.infinitysw.com/2008/11/04/rating-mobile-platforms-development/

Elia

Comment from Amir on 2008-11-15

2008-11-15T16:29:58Z

Hi Bernard,

It's a good point, but I think you're barging into an open door. Rails apps (such as basecamp) make it extra easy to interface to using different clients. Just go to any basecamp page and change the extension to .xml - see what happens.

Our human translation systems is also built on Rails and does the exact same thing. Users can access it through a browser or via our desktop client.

The web browser interface has the mobility advantage - nothing needs to be installed. The desktop client offers additional functionality due to the greater client side processing.

I suspect that it's a relatively small task for 37 Signals. Did you contact them about it?

Comment from CJ Guest on 2008-11-15

2008-11-15T22:24:09Z

As a Basecamp user, I couldn't agree more! Basecamp is such a useful tool, but it does scream for a mobile app. There's an upcoming app called Outpost, that looks promising http://outpostapp.com/ . Unfortunately I'm in the Blackberry camp, so hopefully there will be a Twitterberry-like solution! Fingers crossed... Great post!

Comment from Ori Matalon on 2008-11-16

2008-11-16T12:45:20Z

Great article and I totally agree. 2 great examples in my opinions:

1. For a web based app that goes mobile to iPhone - salesforce.com iPhone app
2. For a Mac based app that goes mobile to iPhone - "Things" - they have an amazing usuability while on the road.

my comments at http://www.commentino.com/orim

Comment from Dan Cornish on 2008-11-16

2008-11-16T14:13:27Z

We are just finishing up a collaborative, user centric app for the iPhone. It integrates with our web application and Outlook and Exchange. For now we link Contacts and Companies with tasks and phone calls. It is the underlying structure of our app which will allow us to attach other meta data to contacts.

Solving the contact issues was really tough as we have moved past sync technology. We are looking for beta testers. We are done and in final beta test for the "Lite" version 1.0 please email me if you want to help us beta test. dcornish at cosential dot com

Comment from bomee on 2008-11-16

2008-11-17T04:15:18Z

Here's two cents from a dumb user: I switched from a blackberry to an iphone pretty much exclusively because I use Highrise most of my waking hours, and given that there aren't phone-native apps for either platform, it was a "good 'nuff" solution to deal with zooming and panning on the iphone.

I think the reason why I use Highrise much more than Basecamp has to do with the "individual-centric" thing that Bernard hit on above: with Highrise, all the tasks I have going on show up in one list -- and if your tasks are people centric as well (follow up with person X, schedule meeting w/ person Y), then you can muddle along with "cases" and "deals" standing in for the project.

I would still send (maybe 10-20 of) my hard-earned dollars and maybe chocolate chip cookies to the folks who can give me a Highrise app that:

* Allows me to access multiple highrise accounts (eg. work contacts vs. Elk Lodge contacts vs. Co-op board, whatever). I guess this means gracefully handling duplicates across accounts.

* Doesn't nuke my iphone contacts AND doesn't automatically add all my Highrise contacts, but DOES give me the option of selectively merging information

* Logs phone calls to highrise contacts

* Pops up task reminders.

Doesn't seem like a moonshot to me.

And of course, as long as I'm making a wishlist, I would say that perhaps this whole thing of delivering a "person-centric" view of Basecamp would be facilitated if 37S would think seriously about better integration of Basecamp and Highrise?

Comment from OlgaS on 2008-11-16

2008-11-17T05:59:41Z

Basecamp is one of the leading task management services for collaboration though it is not the only one. If you're not satisfied with it you may seek for another task management solution. For example, http://task2gather.com it is a great collaborative tool that has iPhone and Windows Mobile client, it supports all major browsers. It also has hierarchical organisation of tasks. You may share each separate task with different people and leave comments concerning the separate task.

Comment from dış cephe on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T13:08:02Z

thanks.

Comment from Phil Loomis on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T14:27:31Z

Your desired feature list sounds identical to the functionality of Microsoft's new cloud platform.

Comment from John Bardos on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T15:46:55Z

Want a user centric project managment application instead of project centered? Try www. jobblogs.cc. In my view this is an absolute requirement. There is also an iPhone web interface recommended as a staff pick on Apple's website. http://www.apple.com/webapps/productivity/jobblogs.html

Also, check out the review on ZDNet. http://blogs.zdnet.com/enterprisealley/?p=310

Comment from Jeff Bach on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T15:53:39Z

by way of analogy - I own a high end shoulder mount camera as do many others in the indie film world. There is a huge throng that lives to add bells and whistles on to this model of camera in an attempt to enhance its original feature set. After adding the bells and whistles the camera resembles some near-grotesque camera Frankenstein, and it also takes hours to setup and take down. This tendency to enhance takes away many of the camera's original raison d'etre.

Basecamp rocks as is. I understand that evolution is relentless and sometimes even necessary. But I question the utility of making Basecamp more mobile than it already is. There are ALREADY more than enough pinheads sitting around the meeting table not paying attention to what is being said because they are so wrapped up in their little screen sitting on top of their little laps. Step away from that little screen. Don't try and make it (and Basecamp) into something that it isn't. Use Basecamp as a tool that adds value and quality NOT as yet another distraction that takes away value and degrades communication.

Comment from Adam Blum on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T17:33:07Z

Loved this post. Yes, its all about native apps on the mobile phone: apps that use local data and take advantage of the phone's native capabilities.

Comment from Jason Fried on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T19:15:27Z

These aren't 37signals-endorsed products, but there are iPhone apps for Basecamp out already:

Groundwork (Basecamp)
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=296704186&mt=8

Minivan (Basecamp)
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=295517292&mt=8

There's also a Blackberry client:
http://www.phonified.com/Tracker.html;jsessionid=AEB0AB3941B7B169175946DD391A39EF

And a Windows Mobile client:
http://www.carrytheday.com/

Comment from Jason Fried on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T19:16:59Z

One more thing... You don't need to log into Basecamp to reply to a comment on a message, to-do, or milestone - you can just respond via email. Just reply to the message/comment in your email client.

Comment from Richard on 2008-11-17

2008-11-17T20:39:25Z

Jason, thanks for the list of third party products, we will check those out!

I'm a bit confused by this statement tho: "You don't need to log into Basecamp to reply to a comment on a message, to-do, or milestone - you can just respond via email. Just reply to the message/comment in your email client."

RM: you can indeed just respond by email, but that doesn't get saved into BC (unless I'm missing something). So essentially the conversation shifts out of BC and into email, which kind of defeats the purpose of a project mgmt system IMHO. If there was a way to reply by email and save the message to BC, that of course would be great.

Comment from ivan stegic on 2008-11-17

2008-11-18T05:31:19Z

Great comments. I'd just like to add that even though mobility is important, having access to your data from where ever you choose is equally so. I love that 37signals has the open API they do that allows businesses to be built on top of it: let's be honest, that's what it's there for. In lieu of an Adobe AIR app, here's a shameless plug for my own app that gives you your Basecmap fix within iGoogle, in GMail, on a Windows Desktop with Google Gadgets, and in a pinch, on your iPhone:

http://periscopegadget.com/

Periscope also integrated more than one account that you might have with Basecamp into one place, and also is able to keep track of time with its built in timer: both of which none of the others can do.

Comment from frrua on 2008-11-18

2008-11-18T10:30:34Z

It's a shame that there is no common platform to build one app that will work on most handsets. I put high hopes into Adobe AIR for mobile and hope they will release some preview of this technology soon...

Comment from Jason Fried on 2008-11-19

2008-11-19T15:43:30Z

Richard: Replies do go right back into Basecamp. We introduced the email-reply feature in April of this year:

Here's the full announcement:
http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/04/new-basecamp-fe.html

This works with replies to messages and comments on messages, to-dos, and milestones.

Comment from Bernard Lunn on 2008-11-19

2008-11-19T15:58:59Z

Jason, thanks. Yes, I did miss that announcement and it makes all the difference. I would still love native Blackberry interfaces for task synch, but this gets over my biggest problem. Simple elegant solution. Back firmly in the Basecamp fan club. Bernard

Comment from Whitney Nelson on 2008-11-23

2008-11-24T03:29:52Z

There is another entry into the "Basecamp for iPhone" arena. Looks like it just came out after this post:

http://appremix.com/projects/

or direct:

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=297036279

Comment from Geof Harries on 2008-11-24

2008-11-25T04:31:12Z

Why are RWW user comments always so littered with people shamelessly promoting their own homegrown software? This post is about the technical limitations (some would say opportunities) of Basecamp, not a channel for other companies to generate clicks.

Comment from Richard MacManus on 2008-11-25

2008-11-25T19:14:49Z

Jason, thanks. You are of course right, for some reason I'd missed that new feature. Great work as usual!

Comment from Barbara Ballard on 2008-11-26

2008-11-26T21:08:33Z

These days, the web world is going more and more mobile. This is both a good and a bad thing. The good is obvious. The bad is not.

You see, we have lots and lots of Internet-focused folks entering the mobile industry. And thinking that the web is the best most ubiquitous and only real option for going mobile. But you identify a number of issues which support our contention that sometimes applications are better.

You have to look at application flow, responsiveness, data access reliability, and other factors before the "best" platform can be determined. Too many companies are skipping this step.