Comments for I Was Wrong; Netvibes is Not Going Down the Tubes

I Was Wrong; Netvibes is Not Going Down the Tubes

2009-03-10T23:05:36Z

Last Friday I wrote a post titled Netvibes Appears to Be Dying. My conclusion was based on downtime by the service, a recent history of repeat problems with the site, concerns about the viability of the start page sector in general and with the Netvibes business model in particular. Anger that this site I depend on was failing me again was a big factor in the post as well.

After making that post, we received a torrent of feedback, most of which was very negative. I also spoke to Netvibes CEO Freddy Mini and he shared with me some facts, figures and perspective from within the company. Based on that conversation I want to revise my statements about Netvibes and to apologize for the angry, caustic tone I took in the post.

]]> Here at ReadWriteWeb we love web startups and we certainly don't wish any of them, much less Netvibes, any harm. As a journalistic organization, even as a post-objective "new media" one, we should be careful about the tone we take in writing about startups. I didn't and I'm sorry for that. I was personally angry that an application I depend on was failing me and my concerns about the viability of the company were unduly amplified by thinly veiled venting.

But is Netvibes OK?

CEO Freddy Mini explained that the start page paradigm hasn't really taken off beyond the early adopter set but remains useful as a driver for sales of the company's new enterprise and "branded portal" offerings. The company also has enough users that "cost per install" of branded widgets is a meaningful source of revenue.

I expressed disappointment that the customizable start page hasn't taken the world by storm and Mini said he shared that feeling. I believe that a move away from the DIY start page and toward brand advertisers is a move away from the authenticity of Web 2.0's original vision. Even the language of "brands" is nauseating; every time an online tool succumbs to a future as a "service for brands," a kitten somewhere on earth drops dead.

Since starting to offer enterprise and branded products, though, Mini says that Netvibes increased its revenue 4X in the last 3 quarters of 2008. As a writer focused on consumer tech, that business wasn't evident to me and I didn't think much about it. The company also cut its burn rate (expenses) by 50% during the same period.

Is Netvibes pinching pennies at the expense of functionality and stability? Mini said that the recent problems were attributable to a load balancer that was replaced yesterday, in part because of our post alleging a connection between downtime and the health of the company. Whether or not the company is making sufficient investment in infrastructure is unclear; presumably time will tell. It's also easy to imagine resources being shifted whole-scale into sales while the legacy (free) product gets put on life support. I'm sure the start page product helps with some sales, but I presume that enterprise and marketing sales people help a lot more.

Netvibes raised 12m Euros in August of 2006 and hasn't raised any more money since then. Mini says that while other companies are cutting staff, he's adding people - specifically sales people targeting brand customers in the US and Europe.

I'm not entirely convinced how well the current path is going to serve Netvibes, but Mini says its enterprise product is far less expensive than competitors like IBM - so maybe they can pull it off. I hope so because I want to keep using the company's start page product. Not because it's free, but because it's a very good product.

The long and short of it is that it appears I was wrong - Netvibes is not going down the tubes. At the same time, I'm not entirely convinced that all is well at Netvibes and I am disappointed about the move away from the original vision and towards a brand-centric direction for the company.

What do readers think about Netvibes these days?

Comment from erwin blom on 2009-03-10

2009-03-10T23:26:01Z

I find it a shame that the tone of this piece in the end is 'i was wrong but i was right'.

Comment from Marshall Kirkpatrick on 2009-03-10

2009-03-10T23:28:22Z

Erwin, I certainly was aware that the post could end up reading that way. I would characterize my intention as "I was wrong about things being bad but I'm not sure they are good, either." I was wrong when I said the company must be running out of money but I'm not terribly happy to hear about what they are doing to avoid that fate. Is that not a reasonable way to put it?

Comment from Joe Drumgoole on 2009-03-10

2009-03-10T23:30:30Z

Users don't customise. So any business based on a "build your own X from whole cloth" is doomed to be a niche player. This was alway netvibes problem. For every gung ho geek who depends on netvibes for a page stuffed full of widgets there are a 1000 (a 100,000?) who blow past to something that is precanned.

Comment from Freddy Mini on 2009-03-10

2009-03-10T23:52:45Z

Marshall,

Thanks a lot for your post. Appreciated.

One thing I may not have been clear about: I never said we "are moving away from the original vision", I said the Do It Yourself personal page is reserved for people who want to make the effort of personalizing their page. For companies who want to offer a page ready to be personalized with a preset of widgets specific to their content or service, we offer such a solution running under their URLs.
As written in my comment #10 in your previous post, those 3 personalization offers: for individuals, for brands and for enterprises are all based on netvibes.com.

So, to be 100% clear: we are committed to continue to deliver the best personalized page, used as a startpage or a watchpage. There is no "move away", but rather an evolution to be more useful to more people.

But the long and short, as you say, is Thank you for this update.

Best,

Freddy Mini, CEO, Netvibes
Freddy [at] netvibes.com

Comment from Enrique on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:05:42Z

All the best to netvibes and its wonderfull team.

Comment from Victor on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:10:26Z

Why can't you contact ppl from netvibes before you made you wrong judgement based on some serveer down time? You should be responsible for what you said. It's funny you are finding other excuses to cover your mistake in this article.

Comment from Marc Canter on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:22:37Z

thank you Marshall for taking a second look. Did Freddy quote you the fact that iGoogle is ONLY 9 times larger than NetVibes? I believe that these customizable start pages will be a key UI - but not necessarily by themselves. I predict that Google, MS, Yahoo - and maybe even MySpace and Facebook - will eventually give their customers - this level of customization - IF THEY WANT IT.

Comment from Mitch on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:49:28Z

Question their Strategy? Sure.. perfectly fair.

Predict their demise based your singular experience with downtime??? Completely irresponsible. If downtime was a measure of business viability then what about twitter? it seems alive and kicking.

The bigger issue here is that the damage irresponsible journalism inflicts. We've seen it with a CNN iReporter posting about Steve Jobs that caused Apples share to drop that day. You could have (and probably did) cause Netvibes to lose some users.

Marshall, what if a post was put that your site was was no longer up? and someone went to speculate that you are out of business? Get the picture?

As for this post.. pitiful.. just apologize and then shut up and find something else to write about.

Comment from Marshall Kirkpatrick on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:58:38Z

Mitch, as I told Freddy, when Twitter experiences repeat down time the story is "can 3rd parties build businesses on the twitter API if the service is down all the time," when Google Apps go down a bunch the story is "can people move business communication into the cloud if it's not reliable" and in the case of Netvibes repeat issues around downtime and service issues in the once-celebrated start page market leads to a story that asks "is Netvibes the next startpage to go down for good?" I didn't see the rest of their business and should have looked into it more, not just written out of frustration. But your contention that downtime = trouble is an illegitimate premise to explore doesn't hold water with me. The problem wasn't with writing the story, the problem was writing it in anger and with insufficient information.

Comment from Freddy Mini on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:58:45Z

Thanks Marc :)

Right on for MySpace, Facebook and why not ... Les Echos (http://mesechos.fr) or Ogilvy (http://www.thedailyinfluence.com) or Rambler (http://my.rambler.ru) that's why we do offer the personalization for brands (Premium Universes) and for Enterprises (NFE). This way, we provide, what we, of course, believe is, the best platform, the best widget technology (UWA) and the best content (180,000 widgets available http://eco.netvibes.com/widgets ) to build preset personalized pages.

Comment from rdsc on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:59:32Z

This slag a service off - get an interview - write a long piece about it schtick, is getting boring. I'm interested in your (RWW) opinion - but I'm not interested in you admitting that you got it wrong at regular intervals.
Since you asked - Netvibes seems fine.

Comment from John on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T00:59:56Z

A Fox News style, question as a headline doesn't serve any good purpose at all.
If you had headed the original story with something like "I'm pissed off at Netvibes and this is a rant" people may have reacted differently.
As it was, your "syndicated" and less than thorough article was damaging to reputations and businesses, including RWW.

Comment from Anrkist on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T01:30:07Z

A more objective post... nice.

Comment from George on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T01:42:13Z

Holy crap! Marshall, does Freddy Mini have blackmail pictures of you in an uncompromising position? There was nothing wrong with your original post regarding Netvibes. It certainly was a lot less negative than most of the blog posts on troubled startups. What I'm shocked about here is how easily you rolled over and reversed your story based on the word of a company that has always lied about its success, user count, and everything else. Remember when Netvibes claimed 15 million users?

I personally moved from Netvibes to iGoogle because I am very pissed at their recent outages, and I think the "load balancer" execuse is complete BS. The more I look at it, the more I think that their demise is inevitable.

They're nowhere near #1 in any category they're trying to serve, whether branded portals, personal startpage, widget platform, or whatever business du jour they're in. They're certainly not making enough money to cover their burn, and there is no way in hell anyone will invest in them or buy them.

Run like hell!

Comment from Marshall Kirkpatrick on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T01:48:20Z

No George, I don't remember when they claimed 15 million users. You make good points, can I send you some of the same jpgs? :) I'm so sick of this story.

Comment from Tim on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T02:09:35Z

This post should of been titled

"I Was Wrong; RWW IS going down the tubes"

pathetic....

Comment from Ricardo M. on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T04:33:40Z

I love Netvibes. A few years ago, it changed my lifestyle. Hope to still using it.

Comment from Lodewijk Bos on 2009-03-10

2009-03-11T06:40:53Z

Netvibes has been essential to my work and has made life so much more comfortable. Without the splendid concept and service of Netvibes keeping our site up-to-date would be a nightmare.

Comment from Johan Ronnestam on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T07:47:49Z

Netvibes is absolutely great. And everytime it goes down I'm handicapped at work.

I'd hate it if they shut down.

Keep up the good work Netvibers!

Comment from Mike on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T08:17:11Z

"What do readers think about Netvibes these days?"

So, you screwed up in a big way and now you want to deflect attention onto your readers?

Your apology is half baked. Why didn't you just start out apologising form the outset? This is just the sort of half-baked journalism I wouldn't expect as a long time reader.

Zero point, FAIL.

Comment from Nick on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T08:47:09Z

Hi Marshall,

I bashed you in the comments on your initial post, but I have to say this second post is what I expected from you. Thank you for being honest and open about your approach!
I withdraw my initial comparison with Techcrunch - unlike them, you admitted pretty quickly you were (at least partially wrong) and took the time to do some more digging.
Props to you and RWW, this is why your blog is the #1 in this space IMHO.

Keep going!

Comment from Lauren on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T10:28:59Z

Marshall,

I'm also a Netvibes user. I really love the service and features but 1 thing makes me sad in this story:

Sounds like the comments came from the entire Netvibes staff to put some pressure on ya! I'm just wondering why so much time and energy is taken by the CEO of the company to react for 1 post!
Maybe just because truth hurts and he was not willing this story to be widespread... You made your job and I do deeply believe that your analysis was right. I just feel sad pressure made you apologize!

Hope other journalists will write a more neutral analysis on the company.

I would be curisous to know how many users they really have!

Comment from Gianni on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T10:41:58Z

Oh c'mon, get a life, losers !

So Marshall wrote a post that was a little too hasty.
Then he spoke with Freddy.
Now he posted a more balaced article.
Ohhh, the scandal ! ohh, the outrage !!

What's the fuss? Are you telling me a single post on a -admittedly- popular outlet like RWW is dooming Netvibes? Hey, this is not the NYT, and even if it were, I doubt it would materially harm the company.

The bottom line rings sadly true: people don't take the trouble to customise. I plug Netvibes in each of my seminars (and I do a lot of talking around) but I doubt I have converted many.

I have had the opportunity to speak to the Netvibes sales organisation, but I don't think they were/are focusing on making pre-cooked assemblies a product, but rather on vertical channels à la publishing house.

Comment from Aden Davies on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T10:43:30Z

'Did Freddy quote you the fact that iGoogle is ONLY 9 times larger than NetVibes?' Do any stats exist on Netvibes and iGoogle? I have been struggling to find any at all. I am a big user of Netvibes and I hope they progress...explaining RSS feeds and widgets to the average user is not that straight forward and until the facebook generation really get it then personalised homepages might not take off that widely for a while.

Comment from Rand on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T10:56:12Z

Last year they claimed at the Web 2.0 Expo 85 Million users! Sounds just impossible for this kind of service... How can you still trust them today?

http://www.web2expo.com/webexberlin2008/public/schedule/speaker/6187 (download ppt)

Comment from Netvibes User on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T11:06:28Z

I don't know what you're apologizing for. I haven't been able to access Netvibes for four days now.

Comment from Steve on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T15:51:50Z

I love netvibes and you scared the @%&! out of me with your original post. I use it frequently as my start page/rss reader. It is the only site I leave open in my browser at all times.

When you posted that they might go down the tubes I quickly started looking at my non-cloud options. Since then I have been using the app Vienna for all my RSS'ing.

Comment from Matt Dabrowiak on 2009-03-11

2009-03-11T20:00:06Z

Nice posts Marshall. You're the one that got me into Netvibes, but I stopped using it months ago because it never works, loads slow, and the feeds never update right. I gave up. I check in every once in a while (including just now) and it's always the same (broken) story.

Comment from mikko on 2009-03-12

2009-03-12T12:49:20Z

I am glad for taking another, more objective view. But nevertheless my view on RWW is changing, because of articles like this.

Take a look at Frenchies while you are speaking of Netvibes. Take a look at French RWW. Do it, please, I mean it. U'll see the biiiiig difference in the quality of content.

Yes, "here at ReadWriteWeb we love web startups"... RWW started loving them too much imho. Where is indepth content like this one?

http://fr.readwriteweb.com/2009/03/10/a-la-une/comprendre-les-raisons-et-les-risques-de-la-loi-hadopi-creation-internet/

Please rethink this "we love startups" policy. The web is much much wider than this. And RWW used to be wider, too.

Comment from George on 2009-03-12

2009-03-12T17:47:44Z

Marshall:

Thanks for the response to my post. Hopefully you will see this response through the clutter of Netvibes employees and stooges leaving their "Netvibes changed my life" posts.

I actually did a quick search to find the various user count claims of Netvibes, thought I'd share them to back up my point that they have a history of distorting their success:

September 2006 - RWW - Netvibes claims 5 Million Users
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/netvibes_claims_5million_users.php

September 2006 - CNNMoney/Business 2.0 - Netvibes expects 15 million users
http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology/disruptors_netvibes.biz2/index.htm

February 2007 - TechCrunch - Netvibes claims 10 Million Users
http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/02/21/netvibes-promises-cross-platform-widget-compatibility/

March 2007 - RWW - Netvibes claims 10 Million Users
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/netvibes_launches_coriander_edition.php

December 2007 - Press Release - Boilerplate at Bottom - Netvibes Claims 25 Million Users
http://www.steek.com/2007/12/12/steek-to-provide-netvibes-with-personal-online-storage-technology-for-its-millions-of-users/

Here is the truth - Comscore data shows Netvibes never had more than about 2.8 million users at its peak before its steep decline, and had way less than that when they claimed 5, 10, 15, and 25 million users:

April 2008 - TechCrunch - shows Comscore numbershttp://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/28/netvibes-ceo-steps-down-widget-platform-will-open-up/

Note also the user numbers for iGoogle and MyYahoo - they dwarf Netvibes by an order of magnitude and by way more than 9X.

As I said, I've found that Netvibes lies, and I feel betrayed. Run like hell, export your OPML, and import to iGoogle before it's too late!!

Comment from Freddy Mini on 2009-03-12

2009-03-12T19:41:53Z

@George
Seems Netvibes did something wrong to you. If so, I'm sorry for it.

Regarding numbers, let's here too, be transparent and not confuse number of people having use the service vs active users having used the service within a period of time.
Netvibes, in the past 3 years, has had a lot of people trying its service but, of course, the number of active Netvibes users is lower.
I don't want to enter in the debate and you've probably noticed Netvibes doesn't communicate or show off its number anymore. We just focus on the product. Does the millions of users make the service better for you? are you posting on RWW now because of x thousands active readers? We don't think so.

Comscore measures Netvibes. It doesn't make the number official but they have the right to do so. Here too, no debate, no confirmation either.

But one thing is worth mentioning since you refer to an article from TechCrunch in April 08. In those charts, you can read 2.5M for Netvibes and 20M for iGoogle, can't you?
So, you right, 20/2.5 doesn't make 9, it makes 8.

Bottom line, according to Comscore, netvibes is 8 times smaller than iGoogle. Not bad for a site without links on the most popular page on the Internet? no?

Comment from George on 2009-03-13

2009-03-13T19:28:21Z

Freddy:

You know that the number of users matters because unless you have a lot of them, a free site can't garner revenues and is ultimately at risk of shutting down. Most users want to know the site will be around so their investment in setting up won't be for naught. I became a user specifically because Netvibes kept claiming meteoric growth, as I point out above.

Netvibes DID do something to me as a user - you lied about your growth and success, in essence false advertising (is that legal in France?) to draw more people to the site. Yes, I was stupid. I believed you. Caveat emptor.

I ran like hell to iGoogle not only because of outages and my fear of your demise, but because I don't believe liars can ultimately succeed.

As you've pointed out, I know you and Netvibes are trying to get revenues from other sources such as whitelabel and enterprise portals. You talk about how your revenues grew 4X in the last 3 quarters of 2008. Maybe you can tell your remaining users what those revenues are, so they can make an educated decision as to whether they think you're dying or not, and if they want to continue to use Netvibes.

Then again, why whould they believe you?

Comment from Freek on 2009-03-18

2009-03-18T11:17:19Z

I have been using Netvibes for some years now, but to be honest that's because I haven't been able to find something better. Something that can manage 200 feeds, make it easy to aggregate like Yahoo Pipes, and doesn't need endless customization, categorizing etc. Haven't found such a thing yet, so for now I'll stick to Netvibes

Comment from Guy wanting to contact George on 2009-03-23

2009-03-23T15:25:00Z

George,

I greatly appreciate the fact that you have stuck to your guns despite having everyone, including the author of this post (who you have attempted to side) against you.

I would greatly appreciate your opinion on a verity of products that we offer. I will however not post links to any of them as that would amount to spamming.

Please do let me know how one might get in touch with you.

Comment from pureweevil on 2009-04-03

2009-04-03T12:27:04Z

netvibes has changed the way i organise my life. apart from occasional glitches & a few missing features (one-click pc back-up anytime soon?) it's an awesome service. thank you netvibes.