Digg Does Data Portability: Is This All We Get?
Social news site Digg announced today that it has added semantic markup to fields throughout its site as well as adding support for a handful of key microformats. By adding RDFa and DublinCore markup to news item pages, Digg will now make its content far more searchable by semantically aware search engines.
Combined with microformats that will structure signification of identity and social connections, the new structure of the site could enable any number of interesting mashup possibilities.
Just this week we were criticizing Digg for lagging behind competitor Mixx in the sophistication of its API! Though the announcement is encouraging, it still falls short of the hopes we've had.
The New Look, Under the Covers
XFN and hCard have been added to Digg to communicate names, nicknames, identities in photos and friends lists. You can see what this looks like by going to any Digg item page, viewing the source code and searching for the word "property." Speaking of property, you'll notice that attribution for each page is now also marked up formally: content submitted to Digg is attributed to the public domain by "Digg users."
All of this might seem mundane but thinking just a few steps ahead lets us imagine any number of possibilities. My favorite? Friends network (XFN) plus Attention Profiles (Digging histories via the already supported APML) combined to offer high quality recommendations on any site that wants to pull in the data and process it. Remember, though - if you want to use your Digg history for anything elsewhere then you've got to turn on your APML profiling via that obscure little green button next to the "most dugg in last 30 days" section on your profile.
Hold on a Second, What About...
As much fun as that all sounds, and as much as we like Digg - there's a couple of issues here. APML is a big part of the juice behind the social graph that's being exposed but Digg isn't doing a very good job with that format. Users have to turn it on and it hardly exposes anything (here's mine for download, for example.) Here's me, here's my friends and here's what we all like: why offer a half-hearted description of the last part, what we all like?
Second, has Digg just given up on OpenID? The company made a high profile announcement more than a year ago saying that they would support it. Then everyone waited until OpenID 2.0 came out. It's been out now, and now OpenID support.
Finally, what about Mixx's read/write API that lets users read, submit and comment from 3rd party sites? What about Sk*rt's bookmarklet to let users post things from offsite? Is Digg putting some slivers of standards-based markup on their site and expecting everyone to be thankful for it? I know I'd like to see more.
Digg's a great site and it's terrific that they are publicly announcing their move to include semantic markup for search engines and microformats for mashup developers. The depth of the data portability moves just seem disproportionate with the size of the community, the roll the company has played in the web 2.0 economy and the potential for really extensive innovation.
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That is not what we are expecting from Digg, I mean we are thinking of something more. :-(
Kevin Rose is too busy drinking on his show to do anything productive.
Notice how many DIGGS you get whenever you do a Digg-related post with DIGG in the title ;-)
Heh, y'all'll never be happy. But yeah, OpenID is a must. Or else Kevin Rose owes me a case of beer every month until they implement it. Nuff said.
Seriously though, I'm waiting for the "killer app" of data portability. I applaud Digg future-proofing their site -- it's best practice really -- but ultimately, I think we need a bigger idea to carry the web forward -- like, how things get better when all of a sudden everyone's doing the DP dance.
Posted by: factoryjoe.com
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May 1, 2008 9:45 PM
I'm with "Factory Joe". A nice dance step, but wait until you see the prom! The next few months are critical for data portability, but I am very optimistic, based on what I am hearing from the big players.
@factoryjoe/Messina
@McCrea
1) We've got a roadmap - don't get too excited. We have only *just* starting designing our official recommendations, and this is going to take months. This comes after a few months of trying to create an organisation (lots of people contributing means lots of systems, protocols, process determination - and that's still going) as well as community outreach and research. Some big things will be announced this year, but I'd say later rather than earlier. (What's the rush? We want quality.)
2) Whilst Digg generates some noise, there are a ridiculous amount of discussions happening. Like for example, just today - our technical group has been mauling over some issues they have seen with the broader picture of things so they brought a guy into the chat room to discuss and bam - a solution was made despite DataPortability not running it: http://blog.wachob.com/2008/05/announcing-xrds.html
3) "how things get better when all of a sudden everyone's doing the DP dance."
- far-reaching policy thinking on what a users rights are. Looking into philosophical issues like what rights someone has, and how that applies to the digital economy. Don't underestimate how hard this is - but an output of this discussion is a terms of service that vendors will be expected to adopt.
- Business cases. Educating the relatively immature web industry about the future potential, by dropping outdated notions, and embracing newer ways of doing things that will open up doors. We've seen a lot of developer innovation on the web, but the business side is still in it's infancy.
- Interopability. If Flickr talks with Amazon which talks with facebook, it is going to change a lot of things. It won't be until next year when we see those benefits, because it will be a series of baby step wins as different companies adopt our recommendations (which, as I said, we are still trying to determine). But the increased innovation due to greater interoperability, the decreased data redundancy, the evolution of the value-chain in web-services when they get over this stupid thinking that data lock-in is a competitive advantage and the more seamless user experience are going to make it hard to imagine how could it not have been like this before.
You are not going to see a "killer app" with dataportability; you are going to see "better apps". (Plural. And behind the scenes)
@Elias: phew, man, I'm going to try to be diplomatic, but RUFKM?
Who anointed the "Date Portability" group to come up with the data sharing policy for the whole web? I was there when the group was formed, and for a while was a "founding member" and then quit when I felt that my efforts would be better applied elsewhere. Cheers for getting the conversation going, in circles, but I fail to see how the DP tribe is going to ever see much adoption beyond what companies were going to do anyway.
Do you have any idea why Digg adopted microformats? I'll give you a clue: it had nothing to do with the Data Portability group. It's disingenuous and naive for y'all to keep taking credit for progress that you guys had nothing to do with.
It's one thing for Digg to cite DP as a token — as something that merely stands in, by name alone, for the nebulous thrust of supporting choice and freedom through more interoperable data formats — it's another thing to suggest that it's *because of* DP that Digg adopted microformats. Gimme a fucking break.
As for number three... "Don't underestimate how hard this is"? Well, I'm glad that you guys are in charge here, or else, well, shit! We'd all be screwed big time! Who said anything about estimating or underestimating how hard this is? In what way(s) is the DP group demonstrating that they have a grasp on how these issues are really going to play out over time? I get the pitch of data portability -- I'm beyond that. What I don't get is how the hautiness and presumptiveness of the DP clique is going to get any kind of industry buy-in, long term, or even short term? I can't see how taking credit for other people's relationships and ongoing efforts is going to win you any real allies for sure.
But maybe that's what portability is all about — starting with portable reputation! Maybe in this beautiful future you see, you can take credit for anyone's work that you choose, since, with true data portability nirvana achieved, a golden era of "better apps" and "increased innovation" will surely be upon us, where relationships are also portable, and anyone with a taste for fame can get it, simply by aligning oneself with the debutantes of the scene, eating whosever cake is made most readily available.
I love that you talk about how "data lock-in [as] a competitive advantage" is stupid, and yet you love to lock up and keep secret "some big things [that] will be announced this year". Yes, y'all are indeed the ones to lead this "revolution".
In with the old, out with the new.
Posted by: factoryjoe.com
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May 6, 2008 12:15 AM
@Chris
Funny comment! I can't take it seriously, sorry. I don't want to address all the points you make publicly, because it's something you talk about over beer, not in forums that go round in circles due to the use of language.
But I suggest you pick a bone with Digg and RRW for making it look like DataPortability made it all happen. Not my fault they've chosen to use the term.
DP for whatever reason has become a term that people can understand as a concept; if you're diatribe above is about fretting you are losing the spotlight - that's a shame because it's actually creating more exposure of the great work that's been done by the various groups and individuals in the industry (like Microformats and by association yourself). Who care's why Digg is adopting microformats - the point is, they are.
When we talk about WW1, we don't talk about the 40 years of international tensions that triggered the war. Instead we just remember the main players involved doing some heavy shit that changed the world. Microformats is a technology in the war; DP for reasons that still shock me, is Gavrilo Princip who pulled the trigger to make the growing background noise front-page news and that opened the flood gates. So although DP pulled the trigger, even though there was a lot of history leading up to it, it doesn't take away from the fact that all we should care about are the results.
You're already in the hall of fame. Chill dude.
Heh. Maybe I should have lead with: "you're so vain I bet you think this comment is about you".
I'm not worried about my "fame" or whatever. That's a pure distraction from the point that I'm making.
You talk about DP as though it's a "war", or that it's nearly at all as significant as something like World War I, where the shape of Western civilization was reconfigured. "Data Portability" is a glossy aphorism that is simply riding the tide of a series of trends that started long before the domain was ever registered. However, unlike Jesse James Garrett's coining of the more convenient AJAX acronym, the DP group is focused not merely on technological enhancement and elevating assumptions about what's possible, today, but on a hostile political agenda, seeking to "free our data" and whatnot.
As I said, while I'm sympathetic to the cause, I'm just not terribly fond of the approach, of the delivery of the message, and of the specific focal points of the effort. I'm not convinced that [lowercase] data portability is the problem, and I'm not just talking about mincing words or finding a more appropriate term to describe the problem. And I also don't want to be invited to "join the solution", "tell us what to do then", or any other of that pseudo-participatory disablement. I've given DP folks plenty of my time, and plenty of my attention, and I'm happy to, as I've said before, continue working on my own version of a solution to the problem, and to articulate, as best I can, alternative framings of the problem and the opportunity, and to work on and invest in technologies that I think will generally elevate the state of technology, without necessarily requiring political buy-in to someone else's priorities...
I haven't met you, Elias, and I'd be happy to hash out my grievances over a beer some time, but I won't hold out my hopes for DP. The apologetic, hypocritical, starfucking, grandiose, immature turpitudes that I see spewed out from the group suggest that it makes more sense to ignore and carry on than to fight and cajole. I just had to pipe up this time since I just could get over my incredulity in response to what you first wrote.
Cheers dude.
Posted by: factoryjoe.com
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May 6, 2008 9:39 AM
(And when I say "just could get over" in that last line, I mean "just could NOT". Oops.)
Posted by: factoryjoe.com
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May 6, 2008 9:41 AM
Clearly momentum was growing in large web platforms around opening data before there was a group called DataPortability existed - the User Bill of Rights was put forward in September at the Data Sharing Summit. You don't turn these large companies on a dime and with all the announcements of late they were moving BEFORE November to make it happen. The Data Portability group seems to take credit for all new announcements - as if 'they' did them - perhaps the media needs to take some responsibility for their framing of these developments.
Looking at this comment thread is facinating
On the one hand you have a very experienced technical community builder doing amazing work in the field long time participant in OpenID and moving an innovative decentralized social networking toolset forward.
On the other hand you have a very young, just certified, accountant(Elias) in Australia at a large consulting firm with no prior experience participating in technical communities - either code or standards - prior to engaging in the DataPortability thing.
Hi, Chris.
I gotta love your way with words: "pseudo-participatory disablement" is a great coining; kinda like the passive-aggressive version of engagement. Also, "apologetic, hypocritical, starfucking, grandiose, immature turpitudes"; stellar vocabulary!
You may be right, especially about the attitude. I'm not sure about the bigger picture.
The way I see it, dp.org is evolving to address three problems, not well served by other groups at this point.
First is the challenge of morals, ethics, and laws: what is the right thing to do.
There's a lot on the "policy" side that needs discussing and simplifying so ordinary joes can code for it, and talk to users. DP.org can bring people together from different circles and facilitate that conversation.
Second is the evolution from individual protocols to bundles of protocols working together.
How many ways can you combine identity consolidation with service discovery, for example? DP.org is encouraging thought and experimentation on architecture and design patterns that build on existing work. While it might seem like appropriation of steel guirders and steel cable, we're hoping people see how to combine them to make buildings and bridges.
Third, is the problem of technology evangelism and consumer marketing.
As good as OpenID or microformats at earning support, adoption is miniscule compared to the potential userbase; tiny even among early adopters. There are more than a million programmers in the United States, maybe 4-to-6 times that worldwide; maybe a thousand who've implemented OpenID. Before the problems are addressed, I'm betting there will be dozens, maybe hundreds, of specs and protocols that enable data portability. DP.org can be, and has to earn the right to be, a useful place to learn what's new, what's right for you, and how/where to dig deeper. So the music department IT manager at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople has a one-stop-shop for everything related to data portability.
Last is the consumer marketing piece. I suspect - and I may be wrong - that we'll want to wrap the ideas and technologies that unify our onlives into something simple to grasp, like RSS or CC. DP.org may become a channel for educating and persuading netizens to adopt data portability.
Der's a lotta mebbes and somedays in this. It's early. But that's the frame. Nothing in there about picking "the best" or "the only" way to do anything. This is much more about paving where people have already worn a path in the grass.
There's a bit of ambition inherent in the dream of helping bring about a web where your onlife is with you everywhere, where your visitors come with rich profiles/graphs/histories, where it's obvious that your onlife should be part of every site (you mean there was a time when it wasn't?).
Grand hopes, if not grandiose ones.
We'll see if dp.org becomes worthy of the dream.
So, DPWatcher, this "community" is open only to folks who have been laboring at this for years, not "outsiders" who are "young?" I'm glad those rules don't apply to business and technology in general. Otherwise, we'd still be using carbon paper on electric typewriters and mailing in our bitter little nastygrams.
And why the need to protect your identity? I find it completely ironic that you endorse a litmus test before admitting anyone into your fold. Do you guys wear beaver hats, swear a blood oath and have a secret handshake? Call Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton -- they're looking for their missing lodge brothers.
The discussion between Chris and Elias is meaningful enough. You should keep your inappropriate comments to the back channel chatter. It reveals that when all other arguments fail, getting personal is the only thing a lot of folks who are threatened by a transparent organization know how to do.
Which might be the crux of the problem here. Plain old human jealousy of a bunch of "amateurs" commanding the respect of the watchers and stakeholders after you have failed to do so. Check out the technologists who are working as hard as Chris Messina but have chosen to do so within the dataportability project. They have credentials, too. And I'm sure Chris would be the first to applaud their efforts -- since he has worked so hard and believes in the efforts of individuals. Even if he chooses to demean the way they've chosen to collaborate.
Little diatribes like yours only serve to reveal the true nature of a few in this corner of the technology community so dedicated to openness and freedom of data movement. That some of you are bitter, spiteful and beyond the reach of reasonable conversation. Unfortunately for you, that only serves to put more distance between you and the mainstream you're supposed to be serving. Yes, that's what you're supposed to be doing. I suggest that you focus on your work and upon getting it accepted and endorsed in the way that you choose in the timeframe that suits you best. But don't fault others for trying to do the same. There's room for everyone, whether you believe that or not.
I'd really like all this to stop.
Everyone has a place in the conversation. Each of us are focused on that parts of the conversation that resonates with us and are working within the groups and frameworks that we find appealing.
This conversation, and others like it, are serving no one except the 3rd party nay sayers who claim that open standards and interoperability is a pipe dream.
/me Takes off the troll costume.
Phew, well that was cathartic!
I'm still curious though, @ChrisSaad, since you talked about how DP is an exercise in "radical transparency" in your interview with Sean Ammirati (as I've heard you say before), I'm just curious about the "big things" Elias boasted about.
You also say, at ~8:26, that DP is not going to invent anything new. How are your "technical best practices" not inventing anything? I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue that end, just trying to parse your language. And if not inventing anything, are you basing these recommendations off of prior implementations from the wild?
Finally, for the benefit of Mary and Elias -- I was the one who proposed the video project to Chris Saad at the Social Graph FOO Camp. I'm still a contributor, even if I remain skeptical of the effectiveness/thrust longer term.
Posted by: factoryjoe.com
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May 6, 2008 7:34 PM
Jbond is so disappointed...
- That Readwriteweb's MT Openid signin for comments doesn't do openid discovery properly.
- That Digg doesn't even do auto-discovery of RSS yet
- That the DataPortability Project is being used by PR people as a medal to stick on what is really a pretty minor software upgrade
- That over and over again, standards communities seem to end up arguing passionately about other groups that are complimentary rather than in opposition.
- That when projects get big (eg Digg), their rate of innovation slows to a trickle.
- That so many of these data portability (small d p) standards are effectively write only data. Where's the applications (and libraries) that consume all this data?
Still I'm a Brit and we're good at grumbling. It's not all bad. At least people are talking about data portability in general.
damn, looks like i already missed all the fun...
This type of stuff is exactly why the DataPortability project has never interested me. I find it distracting, once removed from the action, with too many cycles burned in building a brand no one needs to get lip service agreements around concepts that need life in practices, not principles.
If the people who have put the most work into actually deploying (or lobbying their friends to deploy) this stuff cast aspersions on dp.org, maybe you should think twice about over representing the sway the group actually has.
(Sammy Cahn - James VanHeusen)
Next time your found
With your chin on the ground
There's a lot to be learned
So look around.
Just what makes that little old ant
Think he'll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, can't
Move a rubber tree plant
But he's got high hopes
He's got high hopes
He's got high apple pie
In the sky hopes.
So any time your feelin' low stead of lettin' go
Just remember that ant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant.
When troubles call
And your back's to the wall
There a lots to be learned
That wall could fall.
Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram scram
He kept buttin' that dam.
'Cause he had high hopes
He had high hopes
He had high apple pie
In the sky hopes.
So any time your feelin' bad stead of feelin' sad
Just remember that ram
Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam
Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam.
So keep those high hopes
Keep those high hopes
Keep that apple pie
In the sky hopes.
All problems just a toy balloon
They'll be bursted soon
They're just bound to go pop
Oops, there goes, another problem, kerplop.
Oops, there goes, another problem, kerplop...
Chris - "big things" as in outputs to the work being done now which anyone can participate in (public real-time skype chats that never stop, public mailing lists that I can't keep up with, and open invitations to weekly teleconferences where we always going over the allocated time). You've read too much into my comments. Sorry to disappoint you if you thought it was something more exciting like Google announcing an acquisition of Micrsoft.
Regarding the video project - I am well aware it was your idea and I recognise you are a fantastic person to be involved with DataPortability in whatever sense. You're a great thinker and could help guide what we do - it's just a shame you think it's a waste of time. But each to their own.
Nothing else to see here kids, time to move on.