Earlier today our Josh Catone interviewed 37Signal founder Jason Fried about the striking similarities between one of Google's App Engine demos, HuddleChat (a real-time chat application) and the Campfire app from 37Signals. Fried told RWW that "we're flattered Google thinks Campfire is a great product, we're just disappointed that they stooped so low to basically copy it feature for feature, layout for layout". He went on to say that "we thought that would be beneath Google, but maybe its time to reevaluate what they stand for." Well Fried's protests seem to have worked, as Google has now taken down HuddleChat.
On our earlier post, Google didn't respond to our request for a comment at the time. However tonight Pete Koomen, Product Manager of the Google App Engine Team left a comment on ReadWriteWeb to say that they'd "taken HuddleChat down from the App Engine app gallery." Koomen went on to explain:
"The App Engine team was looking for some sample apps to help kick the tires on their new system, so we invited Googlers to build some as side projects. A couple of our colleagues here built HuddleChat in their spare time because they wanted to share work within their team more easily and thought persistent web chat would do the trick. We've heard some complaints from the developer community, though, so rather than divert attention from Google App Engine itself, we thought it better to just take HuddleChat down."
It's all a storm in a teacup, because this was just supposed to be a demo app. It was built internally at Google after all, and wasn't meant to be an official Google product that competed with 37Signals' Campfire. Techcrunch's Michael Arrington claims that "this is the first case of censorship on the new Google App Engine platform, and a bad precedent." That's probably going too far, as this was something that was built by Google employees and so I think Google has the right to pull it - if they feel that it reflects badly on them.
More than that though, I'd suggest that Google just doesn't want the latest blogtroversy to get out of hand (as these things are wont to do). But have they given it a second wind instead? ;-)
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Copycatting direct is certainly not the way to go...
Posted by: 113.com | April 8, 2008 10:09 PMPerhaps the whole "strategy of simplicity" isn't all it's cracked up to be in a competitive business environment?
While I respect the 37 Signals body of work and positive influences on software development as a whole, their devotion to "less features" leaves them vulnerable to easily cloned applications just like this one.
If Google and their developers can create and allow users free chat rooms, which is hardly a new concept by the way, why can't we (the users) benefit from the new competition?
Campfire had an advantage because 37 Signals "did chat right," but do they own "chat done right" forever?
Posted by: wrburgess | April 8, 2008 10:50 PMI, too, respect 37 Signals work, but this is just plain stupid.
How many different ways can you make a chat program work? Well, it seems to me that all chat applications have quite a few things in common, mainly...
A text area to type in your message. Check.
A button to submit your message. Check.
An area to show previous messages. Check.
The name of the chat room, who's currently in the room, etc.
These aren't amazingly new ground breaking concepts. Sure, I'll give them that the layout looks somewhat similar, but c'mon guys.
Posted by: Joey | April 8, 2008 11:07 PMI think that this first issue is one that brings to light the brutal power of the google monopoly.
Now google does not have to innovate on their own; with the new "Dark" cloud service they co op the cult of google developers to do their innovation for them. There is no way that any application built on the "Dark" cloud can ever be seen as being part of anything but Google.
For me it was not so much that the app was a copy of 37 signal that was so shocking; it was the fact that the "Dark" cloud and the cult of google developers can now move very quickly to crush and brutally crack the knuckles of innovative competitors in any space.
Will your application or Business be the next one cloned in the "Dark" cloud.
For the first time in History we have allowed one company to generate billions from content that they do not own and have not created; and to use the revenue stolen from the content owners to hold all innovation hostage. We are being chocked by the very monster that we have helped create.
Where is the cloud/OS for those of us that want a choice and don't think its a good idea of one company owning the very life of the internet.
Where is the cloud that gives and receives.
We at adelph.us will be launching an alternative
"You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe."
"You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more."
from the Matrix written by Andy Wachowski & Larry Wachowski
Posted by: william | April 8, 2008 11:20 PMOMG!!1! Google have also basically ripped of MS office... check it out: http://docs.google.com/
The buttons to make text bold, italic and underline are *almost exactly the same* as in Word, and the 'Save' icon is quite clearly a direct rip.
/sarcasm
And "brutal power of the google monopoly"? Seriously, this is all just getting out of hand. Build a bridge.
Posted by: Cam | April 8, 2008 11:59 PMThis is a about the developers not blogs, lets face it 37s are the darlings of the web20 developer crowd and if you upset them or are seen to go after their products then the developers will turn on you.
I don't buy the look and feel argument, campfire is fairly simular to IRC chat and a ton of other earlier web chat interfaces.
Posted by: diystartupnews.com | April 9, 2008 12:05 AMI completely agree with diystartupnews. Just because everybody loves 37Signals, they come to their rescue; unfairly and biased at that. Last time I checked, just about anything in my house can be bought from different manufacturers and still look exactly the same. It's called competition.
Posted by: Matt | April 9, 2008 12:15 AMAnd 37signals ripped off AOL and AOL ripped off IRC. There is only so much you can do with a chat interface. The Google developers didn't do anything wrong here and I find the blog reporting and headlines to be sensationalist and highly unethical. Give me an effin break!
http://www.courttv.com/graphics/photos/inside/lede/aol-chat-graphic-inside-011106.gif
Richard, you're pathetic.
Posted by: Charles | April 9, 2008 1:04 AM"Microsoft does not have monopoly power in the business of developing and See special coverage: Face-off licensing computer operating software"
Bill Gates
Senate Judiciary Hearing, March 3, 1998
What would the reaction be if Microsoft built a cloud. Would we be lauding it for its power and scalability.
Or would the first thought be more about the fear of a monopoly.
Behold the beauty of the beast that we have created.
Posted by: william | April 9, 2008 1:19 AMGeez, get over your fuckin' selves
Stop putting yourselves on such moral pedestals
Just share your knowledge - what is the big deal, we all end up 6 feet under one day
Set knowledge free - let others expand on it
That was the basic principal behind the Web Wide Web
Just let it go
Everyone is so egotistical and pocessive - so stupid!!!!
Posted by: SearcH◆ EngineS WEB | April 9, 2008 1:37 AMCharles, I'm just reporting the facts. Plus I actually defended Google on this one: "...this was something that was built by Google employees and so I think Google has the right to pull it - if they feel that it reflects badly on them." :-)
Posted by: Richard MacManusA tool called Huddle (http://www.huddle.net) has already existed for well over a year and has trademarks registered all over the place. Poor research on Google's part. Whatever happened to "don't be evil" (and walk all over the little guy's brand)?
Posted by: Andy McLoughlin | April 9, 2008 3:11 AM37Signals just gave some motivation for a whole bunch of people to make Campfire clones on GAE, imho.
Posted by: Chess | April 9, 2008 4:19 AMThat is a shame. I could think of many other apps that are modeled on 37Signals products, I wonder why they don't bother those people as well. It seems that the felt that Google would be a serious competitor. Honestly, half of the web2.0 style apps are modeled on 37Signals' work. It is a shame that they are bothered by Google's app, oh well, just put the sidebar on the left and presto it no longer look the same :-)
Posted by: Shane | April 9, 2008 5:15 AMHold on, people actually *pay* for a chat application? WTF? That is news people... wow.
Posted by: ben | April 9, 2008 5:24 AMEveryone, sorry to post on this again, but this is getting on my nerves (it's been a long day and I've run out of patience).
@William (#4):
After reading your comment again, I really can't get over how off centre you are with this. Setting aside your overly emotive language for a moment, there are a number of flaws in your arguments.
> "with the new "Dark" cloud service they co op the cult of Google developers"
I'm assuming you mean co-opt? If Google wanted to co-op(erate) with developers, this seems like the perfect vehicle. And "cult of Google developers"? Really?
> "There is no way that any application built on the "Dark" cloud can ever be seen as being part of anything but Google."
So the fact that you can deploy your app to your own domain with your own branding, etc means that you'll always be seen as pert of Google. Riiiight. If Huddlechat had never been listed in the app gallery, it would have been hard for the average person to tell who made it and who was providing the backend.
> "use the revenue stolen from the content owners to hold all innovation hostage."
Are you serious? I think it's quite easily demonstrable that innovation is happening all around the web all the time without Google's blessing. And I never knew that they are holding a gun to all those site owners' heads to make them run Adsense, etc.
> "Where is the cloud/OS for those of us that want a choice and don't think its a good idea of one company owning the very life of the internet."
Sorry, don't have a comeback here... I must have missed the bit of the TOS that mentioned that all web development must now be done through App Engine. My bad.
> "We at adelph.us will be launching an alternative"
Phew! So there's the "cloud/OS for those of us..." I'm glad that your not yet released service (which seems to be something about social networking) with some undefined platform and infrastructure will free us from the tyranny of the big, bad Google with all of their well-defined and documented (not to mention actually live) systems.
I'm also glad that you presented such a balanced and insightful overview without any FUD whatsoever. You've really helped me make up my mind about where I'm going to do my development.
And did you hear that the App Engine also enjoys clubbing baby fur seals on its day off? You might want to mention that the next time you start railing against whatever Google does next.
Posted by: Cam | April 9, 2008 5:54 AMHey Cam
Your thing about goggle docs is F***ing stupid dude,
If you didn't know Microsoft are not the only company that have a documents and presentation and spreadsheet package out there, look up open office, that's a free one with still nearly everything the same. It sounds like your a Microsoft fan, so I guess you use MSN messenger, did you know AOL has one, and yahoo, and there are billions other out there.
Google docs brings new features to this whole document production, in the fact its online! anyone can get on it, everyone can store there information online instead of having to constantly send it from 1 place to the other, or lose it.
And to this whole camfire/huddle. Most chat messenger programs look the same, topleft/middle messages window, bottom enter chat, right contacts, skype/msn/yahoo/aim everything! even frigging irc(mirc).
So there is no point complaining about people making applications that look the same, when most applications do look the same, if campfire are so great, they would make improvements so there product is better than this open goggle project. thats how the business works, make a better product so its better than others. Simple!
Posted by: Raged | April 9, 2008 6:40 AMI believe Google should also take down the following apps because they look too much like the products that inspired them:
1. Search: Direct copy of AltaVista. Except it works.
2. Ads: Direct copy of Overture. Except it makes more money.
3. Reader: Direct copy of Bloglines. Except with more features.
4. Oh, why keep going. Google has never invented anything that didn't previously exist. They take other people's products and *try* to make them better. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes they don't. App Engine v S3, OpenSocial v Facebook, Desktop Search v Microsoft, Froogle v MySimon/Dealtime/etc, iGoogle v MyYahoo/NetVibes/Pageflakes, Docs v Zoho, Universal Search v Ask3D, Gmail v Hotmail, etc.
This is just their model people. They are run by engineers. Everyone written about on this blog needs to understand, just as 37Signals does, that if Google refused to enter a space based on the moral obligation not to copy or compete with those that came before them, they would not exist. And now that they are the biggest media company in the world, they also have to play defense. So I believe you will see more and more of this going forward.
Posted by: Duhman | April 9, 2008 7:30 AMHuh, some devs in their spare time duplicated Campfire as a demo!
What this demonstrates is how much of a non-product Campfire is and 37signals knows it. The know there's no substance behind their veil of hype and monopoly.
So, when Google nearly reveals the man behind the curtain they go crying to their blogosphere fanboys "Big Bad Google Stole our product!!!"
Posted by: Norman Harman | April 9, 2008 7:33 AMit does seem like a bit of a storm in a teacup. Good publicity for Campfire. Feel a little sorry for the Google employees who are probably getting a bit of a telling off - don't worry guys everyone makes mistakes : )
Posted by: Kolin | April 9, 2008 8:51 AMIt's worth looking at the comment stream on the original RWW post about this. Jason Fried gets into the discussion at comment 44 and 50. Comment 54 is spot on in pointing out how hypocritical and weak Fried is being.
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/huddlechat_campfire_rip.php#comments
Posted by: Paul | April 9, 2008 9:16 AMThe fact that two non-engineers could build (and improve) Campfire in two weekends says a lot more about 37Signals than it does about Google.
Plus, Campfire limits you to four people. Four! _Real_ campfires are better collaboration tools than that.
Posted by: Miffed | April 9, 2008 11:54 AMSome interesting comments on this topic here on Slashdot
Posted by: James Clark | April 9, 2008 6:38 PMhttp://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/04/09/1256222.shtml