Is Bing Cashback Costing Users Money? Sometimes, Yes
When Bing debuted a feature called Cashback, the product was intended to save users money while they shopped from online retailers.
As we told you last month when discussing the program's early successes, Cashback works by giving users a certain amount of money back every time they search for an item and then buy it from a participating store. But some users have found the opposite to be true: Retailer cookies trigger jacked-up prices for some items, causing a phenomenon one man calls "negative cashback." How much do Bing users stand to lose? Read on, and brace yourselves.
The problem may lie with Bing's ability to accurately track website changes or with Bing's relationships with retailers or with the basic values of the retailers themselves, but one way or another, the system seems to be gamed.
Essentially, certain products from certain websites appear through a Cashback-enabled browser to be a certain price. Yet, if the same user visits the same site at the same time from a non-Cashback browser or machine (or if he deletes his cookies), the price is sometimes drastically different in a way that benefits the end user not a bit.
As one user very succinctly put it, "If I go directly to butterflyphoto.com, I pay $699 with 0% cashback. If I use Bing Cashback, I pay $758 with 2% cashback, or $742.84. Using Bing cashback has actually cost me $43.84, giving an effective cashback rate of -6.27%."
We did the same search, and we saw the same results. Here's our Bing Cashback screenshot from an Internet Explorer window:
And here's the same product on the same website in a Chrome tab:
As a side note, the blogger that alerted us to this issue had previously received a nastygram from Microsoft about his post on Bing Cashback technical issues.
So, what do we make of this issue? Is it a potentially scammy technical glitch? More importantly, how soon can it be fixed so innocent online shoppers aren't quietly swindled out of cash throughout the holiday season? Let us know what you think should be done in the comments - particularly if you've noticed this bug yourself.
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It's not a glitch nor is it anything Microsoft/Bing encourages or controls.
It's just stores competing to show up in product search. Offering good cash back is a way to appear higher, so they do so but also raise their prices so they can profit from the increased traffic.
This is not limited to Bing. You see the exact same thing happening in Google Product Search, even with big sites like Newegg. You'll get different prices when you go through a search engine versus direct without any cookies. Those "add to cart to reveal prices" products will also reveal a lower price if you didn't come from search.
Dan: So this is a pandemic problem of all online retailers?
Sheesh. Users are doomed.
While this is quite bad, there are things that are even more annoying.
I found airline in Europe that will increase the price when you take a look at the same flight too many times during the day.
Couldn't find out what the exact algorithm they used, but my girlfriend was seeing the different price than me from her computer. When I wiped out the cookies, I got the initial low price!
So kids, always clean up your cookies when dealing with Brussels Airlines! Or just clean your cookies every time before making big purchases.
bye
Andraz Tori
Andraz - GREAT advice.
I have to agree with Dan. Its not Microsoft's fault... as much as it pains me to say that. They built a neutral technology that allows retailers to connect to a larger audience, and its being abused. I think that one of the side effects of information technology is transparency. It exposes things (avoid obvious porn pun here). The practices of manipulating sale prices is not new, its just becoming increasingly easy to see with internet comparison. Mass market also means you have to compete with retailers on a global scale, and in some ways it becomes more about the value of different currencies and economies.
aaron: if Microsoft's system is being abused then it is in their best interest to police it.
bye
Andraz Tori
This doesn't surprise me that this is happening. I did a blog post earlier today about aggressive sales tactics that some Fortune 500 company are using online http://www.micaljohnson.com/blog/2009/11/fortune-500-company-or-online-scammer-video/
This post goes hand in hand with what you wrote about here. Let's hope consumers can get smarter to these deceptive practices soon.
andraz: i think deleting cookies is the best option until the entire population decided to be honest and not abuse technology.
How would you write that? Do you block price change after first hit? for a period time? Do you monitor price changes and penalize for price increases in a single session? How do you arbitrate complaints from retailers who will complain that their prices change regularly?
It will be interesting to see how they solve this. Or if they do.
Well not just Online stores but Retailers and big brands also doing the same thing. As I remember Once I thinking to buy a Nokia phine I checked the rates in market after that Nokia bring some "festival offer" with discounted rate so I check the festival offer rates with the old rate and surprisingly I was not gaining any savings. It was almost same!! they just increase the rate of the product and as Festival offer applied an eye popping Discount.
Same thing goes for Exchange. They tell that you'll get good value of your old product if you exchange it but they are playing with you. In real you gaining nothing. they give you exchange rates with the MRP rate which is always high. same formula they are applying in installments offer where you're paying monthly for your product.
My advice is always check for the offer in other stores or sites. Always plan your shopping, Try to research the product 1st before you buy. Never buy in rush. If your getting a really good deal then go ahead buy it.
I came across some more information on this.
Jolie Odell wrote:
"As a side note, the blogger that alerted us to this issue had previously received a nastygram from Microsoft about his post on Bing Cashback technical issues."
That bloggers name is Samir Meghani, who is one of the founders of the start-up bountii.com which is a price search startup that has built a item pricing search engine. He discovered not only the discrepancies, in pricing, but why and how they work and posted it on the company blog....hence the takedown legal threat from Microsoft.
The official response from microsoft posted on the bountii.com blog is....scetchy.
After being pointed to this post by a writer over at InformationWeek, a Microsoft spokesperson said
“With more than 1,000 retailers and 17 million product offers, the Bing cashback program aims to ensure Bing customers get the best available deal on the Web. Within the cashback program, each retailer sets the allocation of products and pricing of those products, which are delivered to Microsoft through a realtime data feed. We have tools that will catch discrepancies, and in this particular case, there was an error in the information delivered to us. When we notice an inconsistency or one is reported to Microsoft, we work with the merchant to correct the issue immediately. Overall, this case is an isolated instance within the larger Bing cashback and we are working with Butterfly Photo to resolve this specific issue as soon as possible.
So Microsofts answer is that this is "an isolated issue" with only one product and defers blame onto Butterfly Photo. But Samir Meghani indicated some deeper issues that were better explained in the post that Microsoft threatened to sue over. It is also interesting to note that Microsoft was warned by Information Week.
All in all, sort of a #fail week for Bing and MS
I've decided to block Bing from my sites, I thought they'd genuinly compete with Google, but they're just being evil.
http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2009/11/23/4651/this-ones-for-free-bingcom
btw, Butterflyphoto isn't a reputable retailer.
I wonder if we are going to have to know which search engine to use to find what we are looking for. Bing for news, Google for Products and Peter's sites ( which I use a lot )
the first screen shot is of the item listing on bing.
it's quite possible for that price to be incorrect, since it takes time for a price change on the website to update on bing. but if the user would click on the item and actually go the website, he would get the then current price, plus the cashback.
he claims that the price was different on the site itself if you come from bing, and then shows a screen shot of the bing listing, where is the screen shot of the price on the website from IE?
I think this post is quite misleading (and perhaps intentionally so).
@aaron:
It's pretty easy to pass regulation that basically demands that all factors affecting the price he is seeing are fully disclosed to the buyer. This demands that the product has a base price and all discounts clearly marked and explained why they happened. For example "Because you surfed to this page directly and not through a search engine, we are giving you 10% discount. Click here for a list of all other discounts on this item based on customer behaviour.". Done.
The problem is an asymmetry in amount of information between retailer and customer.
Then just make the fines high enough that it does not pay off to cheat. Problem solved.
Andraz Tori
Tech savvy users have been using site scrapers like (http://www.download3k.com/Internet/Download-managers/Download-Ez-Web-Miner-Web-Data-Scraping-Softwar.html) to grab discount cookies for years. I am sure there probably is a Firefox plug-in that does it for non-tech savvy people. That way you can always get the best price a site that uses cookies to determine price is giving.
You can always Google or Bing for discount codes as well. The exploits work both ways. It isn't Microsoft's, Google's or Yahoo's fault, but is good to know that the game can be played both ways. Happy discount hunting!
This is stupid. People pay what they pay. If they don't shop around that is their own fault. If they are so blinded by the 2% cashback then it is not theft, it is just good marketing.
All that glitters is not gold! So, instead of running after BIG NAMES, I suppose it’s better to take advantage of ‘not to big’ sites. If savings is our motto; be it money or time, we can go for Ebates, FatWallet, AAfter or ShopAtHome.
though i am disappointed, I'm not surprised. despite the restrictions on the actions of individuals, having increased greatly. we seem now to be in the position where business can do as it likes, and its legal.
now do you tell a Hoodie not to cheat and steal, when the very people who complain most, act in exactly the same manner?
our society is not rotten from the ground up, its rank from the top down.
Its not microsoft fault, but they could implement a ban system (like they do on xbox live lol). This ban system teamed up with a report system could prevent this kind of scam. Online shops/business would think twice before doing this if they could be banned for life from bing's cashback, and if the system keeps growing popularity, that would be a problem for a big business operating online not to access it.
Interesting letter from the Microsoft’s lawyers. Would have thought this was fraud on the part of Bing/retailers. We offer a discount but put the price up first compared to other’s -this is just simple misrepresentation if not outright fraud!
Pity the original blogger was too much of a wimp to stand up to the Microsoft threats!
@mn
This story isn't misleading, they just didn't bother to put in all the photos. If you want to see the real story with photos of having actually clicked through from Bing to the site to see what the price is have a look at http://bountii.com/blog/2009/11/23/negative-cashback-from-bing-cashback/
This seams like barelly legal scam IMHO.
I think the obvious way for microsoft to fix this problem is to allow a certain amount of open social networking to the process, just enough for users to check the actual website and flag the post as a legit deal, possibly put in the actual price. Then online retailers would have a reverse effect and people would not purchase from them.
to Andraž:
I'm responsible for Brussels Airlines' e-business and I can tell you that there is absolutely no changes in prices based on viewage (we would be loosing business by doing so... imagine, nobody would ever buy anything)
I don't know what you exactly experienced, but airline prices are based on actual seats PURCHASED and not viewed. There are a certain number of seats at a given price, once all purchased, you only get more expensive seats. Its regular airline yield management...
Being an airline heavily competing with low cost carriers, there is no point in increasing fares with no reason and turning customers off.
I've also noticed a "bug" where Bing isn't giving cash back when it should. All you need to do is look at all the angry threads on the Bing cash back "community:" http://cn.bing.com/community/forums/12266.aspx . Unacceptable.
Buy online only after you have done your homework. I check the lowest price on google / yahoo shopping / pricegrabber for the item I want to buy and then I go to bing and search for the best possible deal with cashback. If going through bing cash back costs me more, I buy it regularly from the website I get the best deal.
Till now doing some research about the product I want to buy, has never cost me more and always saved me money through bing. Hope this helps.
This is nothing new. I have had similar experiences using Mr. Rebates and other similar type programs. Not with all vendors, but some stores have strange business ethics.Buyer beware!
The Users are not doomed! The principles of economics, specifically supply and demand, are being exercised here. Companys are trying to sell their items at the highest price possible, while we the consumer are trying to get it for the lowest price possible. This is healthy! Shop around, don't rely on just one website or one company. I have seen differing prices on the same website depending on how it was accessed many times. I have checked Bing many times when shopping, and so far, there has always been a cheaper alternative. Don't rag on The Man just because they don't offer the cheapest prices, just don't buy from them. It's as simple as that!
It is normal for retailers to provided different prices based on the sales channel. There is a cost to showing your products on Bing and most shopping comparison engines, and that cost is sometimes passed to the consumer. This is nothing new and not evil, it's capitalism.
http://www.lynx-marketing.com/2010/02/shopping-with-search-engines/
eBags is the master of changing prices depending on how you enter the site. They spam the web with 25% off coupons, but deceptively mark up the prices or remove other discounts.