What It's Like To Write For Demand Media: Low Pay But Lots of Freedom - Page 2
Swallowing my pride
My friends who first told me about Demand Studios are wordsmiths, copy editors of the highest skill levels, who worked for Demand Studios for $3.50 a story.
Yes, $3.50 a story. But one friend, once he had the hang of the system, managed to work fast enough to raise his rate to about $20 an hour, from his couch, on his schedule, while waiting to get a full-time job elsewhere.
Another friend also edited for Demand Studios, as a supplement to a part-time job before eventually getting full-time work, after about a year of underemployment.
Demand Media doesn't need help with public relations from me. They're compiling comments in an internal forum from their writers about why they love Demand Studios. And plenty of people have commented. They appear to be overwhelmingly women, often with children, often English majors or journalism students, looking for a way to do what they love and make a little money at it.
Compare those demographics to Wikipedia: more than 80% male, more than 65% single, more than 85% without children, around 70% under the age of 30.
Admittedly, working for Demand Studios isn't a point of pride for most professional journalists. But the interface and the editing allow people with other expertise to share knowledge. I recommended the site to my father the contractor. It could be a good way for a retiree with a lifetime of knowledge to document life lessons for others.
People with disabilities, or people who have to fit their work around children's schedules, or people between jobs have a place to earn some money, from their living rooms. It's not the only "writer mill" out there, but it has been under fire lately, and a look inside might add a little light.
Jay Rosen's interview with the CEO of Demand Media, Richard Rosenblatt, done via IM, included this quote from Rosenblatt:
"What's more like a sweatshop: someone's living room working their own hours or a typical newsroom?"
Certainly some people in newsrooms are feeling pressure these days, but perhaps that quote isn't quite fair. For a newsroom copy editor to earn $28 an hour (not factoring in benefits), at the Demand Studios rate of $3.50 a story, they would have to "edit" 64 stories in an eight-hour shift. I don't know of newsrooms that are quite at that point yet, but then again, we're in a global economy, with global pay rates.
Some wordsmiths will choose to work from their couches. Take a good, broad look at what they produce before criticizing.
Check out ReadWriteWeb's entire coverage of Demand Media and content farms:
- Content Farms: Why Media, Blogs & Google Should Be Worried
- How Google Can Combat Content Farms
- Jay Rosen Interviews Demand Media: Are Content Farms "Demonic"?
- Demand Media Is a Page View Generating Machine - And it's Working
- Answers.com: 31 Million Copied and Pasted Web Pages Can't Go Wrong
- The Age of Mega Content Sites - Answers.com and Demand Media
- How Demand Media Produces 4,000 Pieces of Content a Day
- Ad-Driven Content - Is it Crossing The Line?
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Absolutely excellent post. This has completely defined my view of Demand Media, after months of a teetering opinion.
Hehehe I liked that description and quoted it (attributed of course) on Twitter: Demand Media...SEO...making good stuff hard to find.
I signed up as a writer for Demand Media and was pretty excited about it, even for the low pay. I could put my articles on my resume/portfolio. But.....after reading their writer guidelines, keyword guide, template, and "how to" optimize the articles for SEO I was completely overwhelmed.
It killed my creativity. I was looking over my shoulder every time I wrote a sentence. I never got to the point of actually submitting an article! I left and ended up writing for a blog with no restrictions or writing template. It's my editor's job to SEO the article and clean it up. I have total control on the originality of the content I produce.
-Jack
OK, we just learned that it's good for writers who need to make a little money but...
Is it it good for web content in general and for the efficacy of search engines in particular? Does it help me find good content when I need to or does it dilute good content making it hard to find?
hj, that's precisely what I've been asking. I think Andria provides some great context, but RWW's criticism has never been targeted to the writers - it's about the impact this mass of content has on the Web ecosystem and search.
After following the Demand Media story on RWW for a few months now I can say that for me Demand Media is the "perfect storm". Their systems are efficient and for a systems person like myself the ultimate case study in building a profitable system where humans are not the bottle-neck.
What a beautiful system!
However what comes out of this system seems to be "evergreen" articles without substance. The key difference is what comes out of Demand Media seems to be in my opinion sterile content lacking passion. If my mum wrote an article on the steps to stuff a turkey it would read like something Julia Child wrote - passion - excitement - knowledge!
To be honest I hope that we lose our need for Google (search engines) and get our knowledge from articles and web sites via referrals from people we respect. This is how I found RWW and have not left the site!
Jack, I'm sorry to say that, but you sound like a journalist or writer from a different era.
"It's my editor's job to SEO the article and clean it up."
No, nowadays it's your job too. What's more, a skilled journalist nowadays should also be able to shoot a video then edit it, or record an audio piece, edit it and put a podcast together.
Stop defending your right to be elitist. Start being versatile.
The $6/hour comment is a red herring. When you start out at any freelance job, you are expected to learn your client's rules and thoroughly understand the expected style of the publisher you are working for -- all before expending a moment of time in actual production.
I think the article presented a balanced viewpoint, but why choose a writer who has only done three articles? Why not a piece from someone who has done hundreds? And let's find out why they stay at it.
Where's the signup page? I went to their website but could not find it?
I'm a content writer for Demand Studios. I have a degree in Veterinary Technology but had to quit my job because of health reasons. DS allows me to distill my knowledge to those who need it and pays me a wage that helps pay my huge medical bills and take care of my loved ones. I know I'm not writing the Great American Novel, but most writers who are making money aren't winning Pulitzers either. I get paid on time, can work from home when I want to, and don't have a boss breathing down my throat. Thank you for taking the time to actually visit and participate in the system before writing your article. That kind of discipline is what real journalism and reporting are all about!
CB
I've been with Demand Studios for over a year, I've published almost a thousand articles there. I have six kids and my goal is $100 a day, I can do this in 3-4 hours most days. I write $20 articles (they range from $2-$25) I am extremely happy with the pay. In the beginning I was much slower and it took a lot longer to reach my goals. I used to work 7 days a week but lately I've been cramming a week's worth of work into 2-3 days. Life is good:)
I agree with pappas. Someone who only did 3 articles for DS isn't in much of a position to say a whole lot. I mean that's like working in a restaurant for one day and then expounding upon it. How could you possibly have much of an opinion? Not to say her view isn't viable or wasn't good because it is. Very fair.
I'd rather see someone who has written way more as well. I've done almost 200 articles at this point and feel that someone who's done this many or more even can speak more to the system than someone who's done less than a handful.
I am a content writer for Demand Studios and the content we write for lack of a better term strives to resemble instruction manuals, encyclopedia articles, standard operating procedures - things of this nature. For individuals who prefer to read facts or instructions that give them actionable, straightforward step then content produced by Demand Studios is ideal for them. For the person who prefers imagery so they can visualize the subject and be guided through a process then Demand Media content will be a disappointment to them.
It is not for everyone. Nothing created satisfies everyone. Those who know exactly what they are searching for will find the appropriate content to meet their needs. If you are not sure then you will have some weeding out to do. If you want imagery and descriptive adjectives then read a magazine article or someone's blog. If you want straight forward information look towards the content of Demand Studios writers.
Different strokes for different folks...
pappas and KJ:
You're right that someone who has written only three articles isn't much of an expert.
I wrestled with writing the post because of that point, but went ahead because:
I had less to lose than those who had invested more time in the site;
I didn't see other people stepping up to explain the process, especially other journalists with long backgrounds in legacy media;
I wanted to give other people enough information to decide whether to invest their time in working for the company.
I'm glad to see people with more experience with Demand Studios speak up in comments.
And I agree with Richard and hj: A big question is whether Demand Media is good for search. For that question, I think DM is just a symptom of the impact of SEO and the search for Google juice. Set up a system (Google search), and sooner or later someone will figure out how to game the system to their advantage. Then someone else will set up a new system, perhaps with human elements built in, and we'll all try to figure out how to game that system. And so it goes.
Lambaba: Signup page is http://www.demandstudios.com/
I've written at Demand Studios as a side gig - I'm fortunate enough to still have regular full time employment. My experience was that most of the topics about things I knew really well had been written, or at least weren't on the lists when I searched. As a result, I found myself writing articles on topics I didn't know well, but could research enough to sound credible. I wasn't an expert, but I'm no fool either. I can source my work, and write a basic article on many topics with some research.
My work there was fine, passed editing with the occasional kickback for further format tweaks, but no major blips. But when I compared my writing there to writing about what I really know how to do well, it was clear my work was no substitute for that of a pro. If you've ever excelled at something, you understand that a novice studying your craft can't do well without coaching from someone who knows how it's really done (not necessarily someone who just can read about how it's done). That's not what I delivered.
When I did Demand studios work, my pay was around $10-15 an hour, and with no taxes taken out, that means my actual earnings once I paid taxes on that were less. Their topics are challenging enough, I doubt many people do much better and produce good work (not that some don't succeed in producing more per hour!).
But my editors didn't necessarily know more than me about a given topic; they could probably sniff out pure B.S., but my sense was they mostly cared about hewing to style, not the experience borne of really knowing a topic. What this woman says about their payment mechanisms is entirely true, however. I never had any experience where Demand did not live up to their financial obligations. They paid, on time, every time. In the writing world, that experience is less common than it should be. I'm just not sure that experience produces really high value content.
One conclusion from the comments above from people writing for Demand: it's good for writers but
am absolute TRAGEDY for web content and for web users.
In recent times I noticed a huge degradation in the quality of results returned by search engines. I suspect Demand Media's actions have a lot to do with that tragedy.
Some of you sound like it's OK with you for millionaires to suck down your talent, patience, and maybe your health and prospects, while lowering pay rates and quality expectations for all writing. Can this be?
Star: How does that compare with millionaires who "suck down your talent, patience, and maybe your health and prospects," and then lay you off after 20 years, leaving you with no pay, no writing, and no benefits . . . as is happening with print journalists all over the country? Talk with some laid-off journalists, and ask them how happy they were in the last few years. The proliferation of tv networks and garbage video programming has resulted in "content" that is far worse than you could even imagine ten years ago, but it's keeping a lot of people employed who would otherwise not be, or who would be saying, "Fries with that?" As was said earlier, Demand is not generating Pulitzers, but they are paying people twice a week. These days, that's not a small consideration. Lowering the quality expectations for all writing? Does "Jon and Kate plus 8" lower the expectations for a Scorsese? Different markets, and no reason to avoid one (as, say, an assistant cinematographer) just because the other is far superior. Not everyone gets to work for a Scorsese. Nothing wrong with a little idealism, but it's tough to trade for a gallon of milk. Are freelancers whores in some respect? The busy ones are. We (most of us--full-timers and freelancers) have been selling our souls to corporate America for decades. Some people work at Ritz-Carltons. Is that to demean folks working at a Motel 6? What's different here? I edit for Demand (it's a small percentage of what I do), and if all I ever worked on was great literature, I'd have a very short workday indeed.
Mike,
So in addition to being a journalist and a writer, I need to be an SEO? OK. Let me write my articles and then go back and fill it with keyword SPAM. Then the search engines will tag it in their algorithms that I'm stuffing my articles with keywords and penalize my PageRank. Wow. Sounds good to me! NOT.
-Jack
pappas and Mike do good jobs of spelling out market conditions.
But while Demand Studios or others are setting a floor for rates and appearing high in Google searches, I suspect the equivalent of the Ritz Carlton is out there somewhere, finding a way to reach readers and viewers with unique content and/or real reporting.
Somehow, it feels as if targeted quality will trend in 2010. In the mean time, if I get labeled a "hack," I know I can still eat, and I'll be in good company with some writers of the past.
Working for Demand Media, I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
The Web Ecosystem? Sounds slightly elitist (read=bs) to me. If you don't like it, then don't read it. If they don't pay enough, then don't work for them. If they make you do SEO, find another job. Pretty simple. Create your own ecosystem. Wow, crazy idea.
If Google doesn't want it search, they won't index it. Apparently they do. Demand's goal is to 'produce the world's content'. That's intriguing. How might Google become obsolete or challenged? If there's a competing source of content of similar size and scope perhaps?
Maybe Demand is doing what Bing wants to do with News Corp etc.., but on a bit by bit basis.
Jack: "So in addition to being a journalist and a writer, I need to be an SEO?"
Sorry, but yes you do. It's just part of the skill of being a writer these days. The best online writers can combine SEO-friendly writing with something that's readable, entertaining and informative for real human beings.
It's actually much more fun and creative than you think - and it's nothing to do with keyword stuffing.
Great article and good insight. I don't really get why people wont understand the movement towards "decentralized" content generation. This is the future (we @ Netventure24 LLC believe).
Of course there are different ways of making money through this. One way is to get paid a certain rate per article or get paid per word.
The option we prefer on our Big City Informer News Network is to share the Advertising revenue with the authors. That way good authors generate a much higher revenue while publishing their own local news. You don't "sell" your work just once, you rather keep on earning from it.
There is so much talent out there and not everybody can or want to work in a journalism position. If you meet friends you also talk about all kinds of topics with them, and not all off them are "certified" experts.
Thanks again for the article Andria
"There is so much talent out there and not everybody can or wants to work in a journalism position."
"Create your own ecosystem."
"I need to be an SEO?"
"Revenue sharing."
All interesting thoughts, y'all. What's great for the "content providers" is the number of companies seeking quality content. SEO, smart business and smart systems matter. But I'm optimistic the competition will lead to a search for quality and a need to pay content providers well. It might take awhile, and some content providers will need to learn new skills, or opt for niches that might or might not pay. But it's nice to know new markets exist.
I'm sorry, but I don't think writing 3 articles for Demand gives anyone a good idea about what working for Demand is really like.
I've only been with them for a couple of months but am absolutely thrilled with them so far. Everything I write gets an approval within 24 hours and I get paid very quickly thereafter. I should be up to at least $3,000 a month on Demand very soon and that's only one of the sites I write for.
Once you get to know what Demand wants, the articles are easy to write, fun to research and you get very few re-write requests. I don't know of another online site that is paying a fair few writers upwards of $4,000 a month to write fun stuff (and yes, there are numerous DS writers making that on Demand and more!)
Making $37.50 on Demand hardly qualifies you to write an article about it. Sorry. I make that in a hour on Demand.
I've been writing for DS for around a year. I refer to it as "tripe writing" as that is exactly what it is. The editors (CEs) are a joke a lot of the time with their rewrite requests from confusing what is actually passive voice to wanting an explanation as to why money would be in an IRA if you are closing it (from an article about that subject). There are good CEs too but they easily get overshadowed by the many bad ones. It beats having a desk job, but it truly is a joke. And it's depressing that real newspapers are using content from DS.
Great article. I am new to Demand Studios, and look forward to experiencing the benefits of DS. The article and the comments have given me a better idea of what to expect. Thanks!
Nice to see another writer's point of view on this subject. I ended up writing several articles about Demand Studios on our freelance writing blog after I first wrote up a post about whether or not writing for demand studios is worth it.
Most of the follow up articles were written to deal with the sometimes uninformed criticism of other writers. Like the author's friend in this post, I've gotten quick enough at writing articles on topics I'm already familiar with to do 3 or 4 in an hour. I stick to the $15 ones, so that works out to $45 to $60 per hour, which is a much higher rate than a lot of freelancers make elsewhere writing online. And, unlike those places, there are no minimum requirements, deadlines, or communications to manage.
In the end, I find it a great way to fill-in the freelancing pipeline.
As far as quality and clogging of the Internet and search results with basic impersonal articles, blame Google, not Demand Studios. It is becoming more apparent that their ranking algorithm is slipping. Maybe some of what was in Caffeine will make "content mills" less profitable. Until then, you can't blame someone for doing what works.
Brian Llama with ArcticLlama.com